Horrific Countenance

Megabaja wrote:

Sorry about this - Pascals post squeezed in before I replied to James, but after I started to write it.

- Horrific Countenance: The action is blocked, the block attempt is successful, *play Horrific Countenance* and it now continues, and is unblockable.

Why is it not possible to go into combat phase of a block before playing Horrific Countenance? It is still a blocked after it...

Because the "combat phase" is the resolution of the action, and Horrific Countenance isn't playable after the resoltuion.

Megabaja wrote:

EDIT:

- "Only usable when/by.." implies "Usable when/by.." (notice how bad Wake with Evening's Freshness would be if it weren't the case?), which makes Edge of the World usable after resolution.

Using the same logic:
Notice how bad Horrific Countenance would be if it would be used before unsuccessful resolution of an action. Using it after makes it more usable, and less wallpaper.

Rulings/Clarifications aren't here to make cards better.
What I wanted to point out in my example was that, without the implication, Wake with Evening's Freshness would not be playable at all.

Because the "combat phase" is the resolution of the action, and Horrific Countenance isn't playable after the resoltuion.

No, no... Block is part of the resolution of an action - combat phase is just a part of the state of being blocked. Being blocked means that action is resolved unsuccessfully (at the moment), as ruled by LSJ. He even ruled that in the moment of being blocked action card goes to ash heap, and that if action continues somehow, it uses text of an action card already in ash heap. And you know that action card is in limbo during an action, not in ash heap. From this point action may only continue "as if unblocked". I agree that this card does not have such text. I do not agree that this card is not playable after combat just because it does not have text that most of the card using the rule of "playability after combat" do not have written on them. Some of them were errated to match the ruling, some of them were not. And I'm pointing out that this card is not errated. It can be errated this way.

I understand that you think that Horrific Countenance functions the way you explained, but it is not how this card is written. You are assuming that it is played before, just as I am assuming it is played after combat. It has no parenthesis text to confirm either of our assumptions, nor any rulings so far covering this explicit card.
To my defence: I think it is played after combat, because it has a text "Untap the blocking minion", and not the usual "do not tap the blocking minion", and "Only usable when this vampire is blocked" and not the usual "Only usable when a minion attempts to block" They both suggest that block has already happened. It is a subtle difference, but is a difference that hints what the right usage of the card might be. For example: if you are about to block the action you can play cards to avoid it (as obedience states - "about to" is the key). In the case of Horrific Countenance this "about to" part is already over. You are already blocked. Obedience hints another thing - at the moment minion plays it - minion is not tapped ( do not tap this blocking minion). In the case of Horrific Countenance, card assumes that blocking minion is tapped. Obedience is, by card text, playable before Horrific Countenance. Minions A and B have same amount of stealth and intercept. Acting A is currently being blocked, so if he does not play Elder Impersonation or Change of Target, B gets the chance to play Obedience or Minor Irritation. If B does not play Obedience, both have passed impulse and combat begins. There is no window for Horrific Countenance before combat. Timing is the key. So Obedience is played before minion taps ( do not tap the blocking minion) and HC after the minion taps ( Untap the blocking minion). There is no window between Obedince and combat. Horrific Countenance is unplayable while blocking minion is not taped, by card text. Blocker needs to tap for Horrific Countenance to be playable. If he is tapped, combat begins.

Also, ruling that cards need explicit text to be playable after combat made by LSJ, did not live in expansions that were released after the ruling was made. That is why I mentioned POoT and Edge of the World, and Wakes of all sorts. Those cards were not errated by LSJ, and as Tiago mentioned, even in the case of POoT LSJ does not explicitly say can or cannot be played, but stays somewhat confusing...

Megabaja wrote:

No, no...

So when you said that all you wanted was for it to be reviewed? And now Pascal has reviewed it and you're still insisting that it needs to change?

It got what you wanted - a review. It didn't get the outcome you wanted, because you were wrong.

Megabaja wrote:

All I am saying that this card needs an official look into. Why are you against it so stubbornly?

It's quite apparent that that wasn't all you were saying.

Megabaja's crusade is interesting in many ways.
we just have to remember that rulings are arbitrary and not always consistent i guess. Not to belittle the work of lsj or pascal, but sometime consistency is what a game needs...

Reyda wrote:

but sometime consistency is what a game needs...

Neither Megabaja nor any proponent of "consistency" propose thing that are more consistent. It can be argued that they are easier to remember or more intuitive, but they just follow another logic ; they don't have one where Pascal and LSJ have none.