Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter?

Outside the Hourglass
Combat
odf: Strike: dodge.
tem: Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver.
TEM: Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round.

Vampiric Disease
Master.
Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter.

I guess, based on previous rulings, that vampire gets a disease counter. Damage from Outside the Hourglass is dealt on close range, if the range for that round hasn't been set.EDIT: to long.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter?

No. Were Vampiric Disease's text ruled that way, it would be entirely redundant. So LSJ ruled that it operates after range is determined.

[LSJ 20100701]

LSJ wrote:

> By this reasoning a Vampiric Disease counter should be passed as well.

Except that card text on VD is clearly using the "after range is
determined" window.

Note that the 'this reasoning' is specifically with reference to fun ensuing from the whole "What range is it for Outside the Hourglass and how does that interact with...?" which is the wider topic of the thread.

(It wouldn't be a bad idea to have clarificatory text added to the official card text, but the ruling is sufficient.)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter?

No. Were Vampiric Disease's text ruled that way, it would be entirely redundant. So LSJ ruled that it operates after range is determined.

Right. "Before range is determined" occurs before VD can trigger. VD requires close range, per card text.

I do not understand this.

can someone explain to me why does he not get disease counter, step - by - step?

Pendargon wrote:

I do not understand this.

can someone explain to me why does he not get disease counter, step - by - step?

LSJ ruled that Vampiric Disease says, in effect:

"After range has been determined (in the Determine Range step), if range is close and one vampire has a disease counter, then the opposing vampire also..."

or something like that. (Note: not official text.)

This is how it always functioned in days of yore - so Elysium: The Aboretum or Mariel, Lady Thunder could protect you from it. This was before there was ever an issue caused by Outside the Hourglass/Disarm, which requires knowledge of the range even before range is determined. So the ruling preserves the implicit assumption in Vampiric Disease's text - that you've already been through Determine Range.

In the proposed situation, one vampire has been torporised before Determine Range, ending combat.



(Personally, from an 'ick' perspective, I'd rather the Outside the Hourglass interaction with range wasn't necessary (such as by errata-ing it by fiat to be environmental damage, a la Weather Control), or that all the dependent cards - like Disarm - that interact with it were only playable after range has been determined. But that's not where we are.)