Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

Megabaja wrote:

What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long.
So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text

www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=20#30550

Pascal wrote:

- OtH when opposing has a Improvised Flamethrower + Maneveur/set range to long => Improvised Flamethrower does not explode.

Basically, Disarm isn't playable at long range (all the Disarm points), and damage is resolved when it is inflicted - we don't retro-check it (last point).

It wasn't long when OtH was played. It became long after. We don't go back and interfere with it then (retro-check it).

Looking at the very end of the thread that James just linked you get this(which should keep my head from exploding in the likely event I face these situations tomorrow):

Pascal wrote:

extrala wrote:

Can you tell me why the first two are *not* valid in comparison of the third?

- OtH + Maneuver to long + Majesty Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Selective Silence + Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Fear of the Void Below + Majesty + Disarm => Valid.

Brainfart.Disarm isn't playable as Fear of the Void Below is played (see ruling from LSJ quoted by Ankha).

I'll change Disarm and Pulled Fangs to get this clear. They'll only be usable at close range.
This should answer all the questions:

* Set range to long + OtH : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long)
* OtH + set range to long : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long)
* Fear of the Void Below + OtH + set range to close: range can be played (as range is set to close at the end of the round).

Name: Disarm
[Sabbat:R, SW:R, CE:PB, BH:PN, KMW:PAl, Third:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
[pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.

Name: Pulled Fangs
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, SW:PB, CE:R2, Anarchs:PAG]
Cardtype: Combat
Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this minion inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a minion being burned or going into torpor.
Put this card on the opposing vampire, and this minion inflicts 1 point of damage. The victim cannot hunt until this card is removed. Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. If the victim must hunt and cannot, he or she goes into torpor. A vampire can have only 1 Pulled Fangs.

And for the Improvised Flamethrower question, this Disarm / Fear of the Void Below change doesn't affect anything.
If OtH is played at long range (either because range has been set to long or because the default range is long and we're in the "before range is set" step), the Flamethrower explodes.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Megabaja wrote:

What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long.
So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text

www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=20#30550

Pascal wrote:

- OtH when opposing has a Improvised Flamethrower + Maneveur/set range to long => Improvised Flamethrower does not explode.

Basically, Disarm isn't playable at long range (all the Disarm points), and damage is resolved when it is inflicted - we don't retro-check it (last point).

It wasn't long when OtH was played. It became long after. We don't go back and interfere with it then (retro-check it).

now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/

Pendargon wrote:

now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/

Handle OtH's damage when it's played. Is it long? No. No explosion. Move on.

Does it become long after? The damage effect on OtH has already been handled. Don't re-open it.

Ankha wrote:

Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official).

Your #3 is the same as #1 (e.g. Until the end of the Determine Range step, there is no range).

For Pascal,

So consequent questions are:

#1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step?

#2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played?

#3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?)

#4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step")