Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

prunesquallor wrote:

So why does Disarm work with Outside The Hourglass (especially when combined with Domain of Evernight at basic Temporis, so that combat ends before range is determined), and Vampiric Disease does not?

Because Disarm reads "at the end of round" while Vampiric Disease reads "after range is set" (and the intent is to have the counter placed right before declaring strikes).
Perhaps changing VD to "during strike declaration" would be clearer..

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

It sounds like you need to pick ONE premise and apply it to ALL cards (changing any appropriate rulings no matter who made them and when).

1) Before the Determine Range Step there is no range

OR

2) The range is always close unless the Determine Range Step changes it to Long.

There should be a
3/ Cardtext is sufficient enough to answer such questions.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

#1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step?

#2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played?

#3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?)

#4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step")

1 - No. If you play Weather Control and Selective Silence, you still have damage to handle.
2 - Yes. And so would be any "Only usable before range" cards. [LSJ 20090825]
3 - No.
4 - The Rulebook and the Complete Rules Reference are quite clear on 60% of the questions that are asked. Cardtexts cover an additional 35%. Then you have 4% rulings. And 1% of obscureness. I would be happy to remove those last 5%, but that would have to be without altering how the other 95% work. I would gladly update VD's cardtext with 2 or 3 extra words to make it crystal clear.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Is there a difference between "Only usable before range is determined" and "Play before range is determined" (e.g. Between the play-window of say OtH and Devil-channel: Hands) and "Before range is determined" (the text on OtH and/or Devil-channel: Hands from Zip Gun)?

No; they are the same. You can play Outside the Hourglass, and then Zip Gun, or the other way around.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So Pascal, can we potentially remove this legacy "Keywording" and replace it with something that is not just clear but also make a clear decision (which is then applied to ALL of the relevant cards overturning whichever legacy rulings are necessary) on:
1) Is there a range before the ending of the Determine Range Step?

Rulebook reads: "Close range is the default for each round."
If there is a combat, unless something changed the range to long, then range is close.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

2) Does the sequence of playing cards, such as Outside the Hourglass, in the before range step drastically change their interactions?

That's to vague a question to get an absolute answer better than "It depends on what these cards do."

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Example
Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'.

Those in which the damage is taken at long range (per Improvised Flamethrower's cardtext), which are: the second one, and, depending on how the player with Selective Silence decided to order effects (did he handle the 2 damage before or after playing Selective Silence?), the first one too.

Pascal wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Example
Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'.

Those in which the damage is taken at long range (per Improvised Flamethrower's cardtext), which are: the second one, and, depending on how the player with Selective Silence decided to order effects (did he handle the 2 damage before or after playing Selective Silence?), the first one too.

mmm how could the damage be "pending" ? I thought you had to handle damage (and prevention) right away (as stated in rulings/clarifications on weather control).

If the vamp plays OtH, the dmage has to be handled before selective silence can be played -at least in my book, but I'd like to hear the official truth

Pascal wrote:

1 - No. If you play Weather Control and Selective Silence, you still have damage to handle.
2 - Yes. And so would be any "Only usable before range" cards. [LSJ 20090825]
3 - No.
4 - The Rulebook and the Complete Rules Reference are quite clear on 60% of the questions that are asked. Cardtexts cover an additional 35%. Then you have 4% rulings. And 1% of obscureness. I would be happy to remove those last 5%, but that would have to be without altering how the other 95% work. I would gladly update VD's cardtext with 2 or 3 extra words to make it crystal clear.

In response to #1:
There can't be any damage left to resolve before the play of Selective Silence; VTES has no 'stack'. So, does Selective Silence immediately bypass the rest of the 'step'/window when it is played?

In response to #2:
Again, the reference is an old google-groups link; this site is the home of VTES now so something HERE should state that and honestly for new players it should be a card or rulebook. Can that please be put into the CRR, Rulebook or somewhere else that is EASY to reference? OR Could we update the text of these cards to explicitly be written to occur before the determine range step (not as they currently stand where the English on the card is ambiguous). ((Please note, there are only three steps in the Rulebook and 6 in the CRR, so which is correct??))

In response to #4:
Why can't all of these "other sources" actually be obvious on the card? Why should 60% of the necessary information be off the card?? I have been trying to make this point, and it seems like I might have an ally in ICLee but probably not in Ankha or JamesatZephyr: Why should the card be almost the LAST port of call in a game where it says in the rulebook that "When the card conflicts with the rules, obey the card"???? Do people not see the stupidity of having an unofficial rule which says "Oh by the way, the card texts aren't actually the card texts and that the 'English' written on those card cannot be taken in its obvious sense".

This is the heart of the struggle new players have with the game. We, as local Princes, tell them "Here are the rules, and in the rules it says that the cards trump the rulebook" and then have to tell them in a LARGE number of cases "Oh but the wording on that card is not actually how you read it that way..." It frustrates the shite out of me that to teach new people I have to be a walking encyclopedia of the trivia of 10+ years of Google Groups and then in their first few games I have to transfer probably a quarter of that. It frustrates them; their eyes swim and all I can say is "I really promise you that its worth it..." because that always works to convince people when they are considering if they want to trawl through eBay to buy leftover-collections to get any of their own cards. One of my 'new potential converts' is a MtG Judge and finds it frustrating to get into the variety of random rulings.