Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

Ankha,
I was attempting to particularly have Pascal answer those questions.

The main reason is that the only criteria on Selective Silence is that it is used "Before range is determined" which in a literal sense means "at any point before the end of the determine range step". So from the text ON THE CARD, it is playable once minions have begun playing maneuvers because the range is not yet determined (i.e. we have not reached the end of the determine range step) and it is an ugly affair that we need to have CRR.VI to dictate that "Before range is determined" is not read in plain English. (I would suggest as an immediate remedy to that 'oversight' that those cards all be errata'd to read "Before the determine range step". This would then make it clear, on the card, that once maneuvers are played these cards are not playable. This is one of the immediate examples of where "Keywording" has been done atrociously and never amended. (It smells again of LSJ-fiat and not having any future follow-up to clean up the keywording. The tendency of the VTES community to be happy with an 'off-the-card ruling' instead of developing a clear on-the-card text stuns me. And the dogged adherance to those off-the-card rulings is equally troubling at times.)


From this comes another moment of keywording apparently being done poorly.

(Again for PASCAL) Is there a difference between "Only usable before range is determined" and "Play before range is determined" (e.g. Between the play-window of say OtH and Devil-channel: Hands) and "Before range is determined" (the text on OtH and/or Devil-channel: Hands from Zip Gun)?

So Pascal, can we potentially remove this legacy "Keywording" and replace it with something that is not just clear but also make a clear decision (which is then applied to ALL of the relevant cards overturning whichever legacy rulings are necessary) on:

1) Is there a range before the ending of the Determine Range Step?
2) Does the sequence of playing cards, such as Outside the Hourglass, in the before range step drastically change their interactions?
Example
Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'.


And before I get the obligatory screams of "But it has always been done XYZ way (insert Google Group references where LSJ had a debate with someone 4+ years ago)"... WHY AREN'T THOSE SPECIFIC POINTS ALREADY INTEGRATED INTO THE RESOURCES FOR PLAY (Rulebook, CRR)? WHY HAVEN'T THEY RESULTED IN A CLEAR CHANGE TO THE KEYWORDING USED IN VTES? If there isn't much of an answer to that (or the usual 'But we had an LSJ ruling (points back at Google Group)' then I'm sure you won't mind that you could getting arrested in Alabama for opening an umbrella on a public street ( link here ) even though its patently dense for that law to still exist and I doubt that any police officer enforces it (because of the stupidity of the law)

I think that if you read Pascal's entire post that I linked above it is much easier to understand what the ruling is. Some interpretations are just plain wrong or outdated, leading to more confusion here.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

I think that if you read Pascal's entire post that I linked above it is much easier to understand what the ruling is. Some interpretations are just plain wrong or outdated, leading to more confusion here.

That still doesn't detract from it being overly complicated though.

@Brandonsantacruz:
I didn't say that Pascal may not have ruled which is which or that it has been simplified. But I have been playing this game for a LONG time, and even with the collective rulings by LSJ & Pascal, I am not confident about how to rule this issue. It seems like all it takes is another strident debate from 'the right people' in the community for Pascal to create another special-case and there may still not be a global principle that will be used as a yardstick for developers and judges.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter?

No. Vampiric Disease counter is placed after range is determined (as linked by jamesatzephyr).
Perhaps "when strikes are declared" is clearer than "after choosing range"..