Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

Ankha wrote:

MtG is another game with a majority of triggered effects. It's logical that triggered effects are emphasized. It would be weird to do the same in V:TES since they are very few effects such as these. [...] For instance, usage of a colon could get mixed up with strikes that use colons.

You're not wrong, MTG does have mostly triggered abilities, but I'm curious whether you mean triggered or activated abilities (effects). In MTG, the [cost]:[effect] model is for activated abilities. Triggered abilities use the words "when", "each time", "at the beginning of [phase]", etc. They are written as ["when" / "each time" / "at the beginning of..."] [game phase / game state / condition is met], [effect]. So for example, Aching Beauty is a triggered ability by MTG standards.

Your comment on possible confusion with strikes because of the colon has me thinking more on the subject of templating and VTES graphic layout, and the pros and cons. On the one hand, part of me wants to see most of the information for timing windows, blood costs, discipline requirements, and other requirements reduced to the [cost] : [effect] model like MTG, but that poses its own problems.

For example:
, 1 , , Strike: Strength + 2 damage. Only usuable on the second round of combat. Looks good IMO, would all fit in the text box, and would clear up a lot of the card space and would mean we could remove the marble border. And having the 'requirement' come at the very end was actually how the Jyhad cards were written. But then you'd have to repeat the entire [cost] line just to do the version, making for a lot of redundancy. But then again, you could change the cost more readily for the version.
For example:
, 2 , , Lock: Cancel a referendum as it is called.

Note: card templating and card wordings are separate from the rule book and the current topic. The grounds of discussion were laid out in the opening post.

Please attempt to return to the rule book feedback once done with the templating opinions. Card and wording templates in general could make for a topic of it's own.

Those themes touch the original topic, but should not derail the discussion.

Please continue the discussion on wording on cards and templating here:

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77373-discussion-clear-and-consistent-wording-templates#93431

minor quibble: On page 7, the alignment of the card type icons and the accompanying text is off, starting with 3. Ally, equipment and retainer cards.

Additionally, I would advocate for changes to be made to the Action Modifier icon. As it currently stands, it is somewhat easy to mistake them for Actions for new players and players who have poor vision. The easiest fix I can think of for this is to just rotate the icon 90 degrees and have it point up and down, thus making it more distinct from the arrows point left and right.

Regarding NRA, I feel that the passage in 6.1.6 could be amended as follows:

A minion cannot attempt an action of the same name or an Action provided by a card in play (including the minion's own card text) that has already resolved (successfully or unsuccessfully) for him that turn, even if he unlocks. Actions that are cancelled may be attempted again, unless stated otherwise on the cancelling card.

there's probably a better way of phrasing that, but framing the passage in terms of resolved actions and providing a reminder that an unsuccessful action has still resolved could add greater clarity. additionally, a reminder that cancelled actions, which have not reached resolution are exempt from this rule unless otherwise stated (like change of target)

Ankha wrote:

This would be a breaking change, as vampires can attempt more than once a bleed for instance, if the first one never reached resolution (eg., Direct on the bleed action card, or Tangle Atropo's Hand).

No, because cancellations are already treated as exceptions to the general rule.

“Cancel a card”: A "canceled" card has no effect, but it is still considered played. Unless explicitly
written, cost for the card is paid. If the card was a strike card, the minion who played it must choose
a strike, which might come from another strike card. If the card was an action card, the minion
doesn’t lock (he doesn’t pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.

That part should be rewritten to include all actions, not only cards. You cannot expect anyone to understand the effect of Tangle on a cardless bleed from reading the current rulebook alone.

self wrote:

Regarding NRA, I feel that the passage in 6.1.6 could be amended as follows:[/i]

A minion cannot attempt an action of the same name or an Action provided by a card in play (including the minion's own card text) that has already resolved (successfully or unsuccessfully) for him that turn, even if he unlocks. Actions that are cancelled may be attempted again, unless stated otherwise on the cancelling card.

there's probably a better way of phrasing that, but framing the passage in terms of resolved actions and providing a reminder that an unsuccessful action has still resolved could add greater clarity. additionally, a reminder that cancelled actions, which have not reached resolution are exempt from this rule unless otherwise stated (like change of target)

Well, actually, what you state is wrong.

You can hunt any number of time in the same turn, you can rescue from torpor any number of time, you can even equip from your other minions any number of time.

And on the other hand, you can't play a parity shift and a KRC in the same turn.

Timo wrote:

self wrote:

Regarding NRA, I feel that the passage in 6.1.6 could be amended as follows:[/i]

A minion cannot attempt an action of the same name or an Action provided by a card in play (including the minion's own card text) that has already resolved (successfully or unsuccessfully) for him that turn, even if he unlocks. Actions that are cancelled may be attempted again, unless stated otherwise on the cancelling card.

there's probably a better way of phrasing that, but framing the passage in terms of resolved actions and providing a reminder that an unsuccessful action has still resolved could add greater clarity. additionally, a reminder that cancelled actions, which have not reached resolution are exempt from this rule unless otherwise stated (like change of target)

Well, actually, what you state is wrong.

You can hunt any number of time in the same turn, you can rescue from torpor any number of time, you can even equip from your other minions any number of time.

And on the other hand, you can't play a parity shift and a KRC in the same turn.

Please show me where I advocated for changing the exceptions made for actions taken to hunt, Rescue From Torpor, or Equipping from another minion.

Please show me where I advocated for the removal of the restriction placed on Bleed actions and Political actions.

For further clarity, I'm saying the last paragraph under 6.1.6 on page 13 of the Black Chantry rule book that states:

A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card more than once each turn, even if he unlocks. A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than once each turn, even if he unlocks.

could be amended to provide greater clarity as to how the no repeat actions rule works in general, as stated in my previous post. Indeed, at the very top of the next page in the rule book under 6.1.7 it reads: (emphasis from the rulebook)

6.1.7. Political Action (+1 stealth)
A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum. It has a default +1 stealth and can only be taken by vampires (allies cannot call referendums). A political action is always undirected (see Who May Attempt to Block, sec. 6.2.2.1). A minion cannot perform more than one political action each turn.