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08 Feb 2019 13:17 #93351 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

Anyway, back to the topic: What you're aiming for does not need to be described in the rulebook; rather, the card text can have :gang: or !gang! : effect.


I forgot I wanted to address this earlier. Firstly it appears that I grabbed the wrong part of the rulebook. whoopsie. Secondly, you're not wrong with your point, but in my mind Meeting The Requirements To Play A Card is probably important and should be very thoroughly described.
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08 Feb 2019 17:41 #93362 by 2wayspeaker
Replied by 2wayspeaker on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback
So when we combine all this info we get:
Deflection
[Reaction] Reaction
[dom] Only usable when you are being bled, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.

Locked vampire plays OTQV and bounces. He pays "Tap this reacting vampire" with no issues even though he is locked. Locking a locked vampire is not against the rules.

Using locked vampire to pay cost? YES


Hide the Heart
[Reaction] Reaction
[VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2.

Because we value logic and consistency. This card functions exactly like Deflection, Arts Traumatic essence and Revelation of ecstasy. Haha no, who cares about logic or consistency.
You need to pay the "tap to reduce a bleed" with an unlocked reacting vampire. For some reason???

edit: www.vekn.net/rulebook
11 - SPECIAL TERMS
Wording Template:
“Lock X to do Y”: Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by locked minions, even by those under a wake effect. These effects require an unlocked minion to be used. Conversely, “Lock X. Do Y” effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by locked minions under a wake effect.


Using locked vampire to pay cost? NO


Art's Traumatic Essence
[Action] Action
[Melpominee] Melpominee
[Auspex] Auspex
+1 stealth action.
[aus] (D) Tap any untapped minion.
[mel] (D) Tap any untapped minion, and that minion burns 1 blood or life.
[MEL] (D) Put this card on any ready untapped minion and tap that minion.

You need to target an unlocked vampire to be able to lock it using this action., as is clearly described in its card text.

Using locked vampire to pay cost? NO, explicitly prevented by card text


Revelation of Ecstasy
[Ser] (D) Tap one of your prey's ready minions.
[SER] As above, and place a corruption counter on that minion.

I did some gravedigging because the search function doesn't work on this website and found this 3 page long post stating "Revelation of Ecstasy" is perfectly playable on tapped vampires.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75626-revelation-of-ecstasy-when-prey-is-tapped-out
answers by: Hakuron talonz TwoRazorReign thelonius reloaded Ankha

Using locked vampire to pay cost? YES



Luckily this is all in the rulebook.

Tapping a tapped card is not mentioned at all in the rules. It's completely on the player to discover that it's not restricted by the rules. At some point, this is going to have a detrimental effect on the game, where players don't want to make that extra effort to discover things.


Oh... or not.
And it only takes 7-8 hardcore VTES players to figure out how this actually works and why it makes "sense".

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08 Feb 2019 17:54 #93364 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback
I am no english native speaker so maybe I don't understand some subtlety but it seems pretty forward to me.

The difference between deflection and hide the heart is that in the case of deflection, you lock a vampire as part of the effect of the card. Locking a locked minion not being a problem, you can wake and then play deflection. But, for hide the heart, it is "lock TO reduce a bleed" the capitalized "TO" is really important and seems pretty clear to me, you have to lock the reacting vampire in order to use this effect so it is a cost and not a part of the effect...

The rest of these example seems pretty consistent to me :

When it is a cost (you can tell because you have to "lock TO blablabla"), you can't use an allready locked minion but when it is part of the effect of the card, you can lock an already locked minion if it please you...

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08 Feb 2019 18:08 #93365 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback
Edited down for clarity in commenting:

Art's Traumatic Essence
Using locked vampire to pay cost? NO, explicitly prevented by card text
Revelation of Ecstasy
Using locked vampire to pay cost? YES

These are targeting requirements.

Art's Traumatic Essence can only target unlocked minions because it says so on the card.

There is also restriction on Revelation of Ecstasy: prey and ready. So, the action allows targeting minions who are locked, since it's not explicitly listed.

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08 Feb 2019 18:17 #93366 by 2wayspeaker
Replied by 2wayspeaker on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

I am no english native speaker so maybe I don't understand some subtlety but it seems pretty forward to me..


So, for you, the rulebook explains this clearly enough that you would not make a mistake?

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08 Feb 2019 18:25 - 08 Feb 2019 18:30 #93368 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

I am no english native speaker so maybe I don't understand some subtlety but it seems pretty forward to me..


So, for you, the rulebook explains this clearly enough that you would not make a mistake?

For me it does.

Locking TO do something and locking as a separate effect is clear.

For me the rulebook is not clear enough for 'performing' actions; I still wouldn't be able to parse the difference between Tangle Atropos' Hand and Psychomanchia on :pre: only by rulebook and card text.

Here's hoping that the lock requirement discussion is now cleared, so we can focus on other feedback on the rulebook? I'm sure there's plenty to cover.

ps. You are spot on with being able to lock a locked vampire when targeting though, it could be clearer in the card text or cleared in the rulebook.
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Last edit: 08 Feb 2019 18:30 by Kraus.
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