file Black Chantry Rulebook Feedback

05 Feb 2019 19:29 - 05 Feb 2019 20:53 #93295 by TwoRazorReign

I don't think this is in the spirit of the op. Question is how do we make the rules more clear and answer is why bother, just learn game from wise man on mountaintop.

I tacitly state that the rules should explain EVERYTHING about how to play the game. Not some things, not a general idea, but how to actually play the game.


I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying "why bother." My post agrees with your assertion that something needs to exist to explain everything about how to play the game. I just think it should be exist separately from the current rulebook, which would optimally be used only as a guideline how to play the game, for clarity and conciseness. This way, players have the option to learn the game through the rulebook and "wise men on the mountain top" if they so choose. It's prudent to continue the DIY and word-of-mouth approach to rules that has worked for so many players over the years. But I believe something else should exist that's comprehensive for those who, say, want consistent judging at tournaments, or those who have to learn the game in a vacuum because no playgroup exists nearby. Or whatever.
Last edit: 05 Feb 2019 20:53 by TwoRazorReign.

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05 Feb 2019 20:57 #93296 by Mewcat
It is not unusual to have a quick start guide as a rules companion. The quick start guide should not confusingly be called rule book, however.
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06 Feb 2019 01:44 #93297 by CrazyCatTim
I am a new player to the game, and this is my first post to the forums (I think - I may have dropped a note about finding a playgroup a while ago). I have to say that I generally find the rulebook to V:TES to be pretty easy to read, at least compared to a number of other CCG rulebooks I've encountered. I was able to pick up a lot from just reading the rules.

There are two things I'd like to see made more clear in a new rulebook, though. First, it was totally lost on me that actions are only paid for if they're successful. I know that this is in the rules, but it could be made clearer, perhaps via example. For at least the first two months of play I was paying for my Governs even if they were blocked.

Second, and more substantially, I find the rules on damage, aggravated damage (especially so), and going to torpor to be baffling. It was the only part of the game I didn't "get" just by reading the rules. I had to have other players walk me through a number of scenarios to help me figure out how aggravated damage and torpor worked.
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06 Feb 2019 02:38 #93298 by TwoRazorReign

It is not unusual to have a quick start guide as a rules companion. The quick start guide should not confusingly be called rule book, however.


Well, it's not a quick start guide. That already exists separate from the rulebook (the Quick Reference Playmat).

If there's any confusion, it's because nobody actually, you know, reads the rulebook. One of the first paragraphs describes the objective of the rulebook, how players should learn the game, and how to use the rulebook:

"This rulebook provides the comprehensive rules of the game; don't feel like you have to absorb all the rules at once. Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is a game of complex strategies that are acquired over time. Once you learn the basics, play the game, and then consult the rulebook when you have questions."

So, when learning the game, reading the rulebook should be the third thing you should do. The first thing to do is learn the basics (ie, from your play group) and play the game (ie, with your play group). Then consult the rulebook when questions arise. This is all fine and good. The problem for me is the failure of the rulebook to actually be a comprehensive set of rules to consult when questions arise. Something more comprehensive is needed, and that something, in my opinion, should be (1) a streamlined version of the current rulebook, and (2) a database of cards, with rulings and clarifications included alongside each card.

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06 Feb 2019 18:35 #93305 by 2wayspeaker
  • Overview of "Base Stats" (stealth, strength, intercept,....) and "Basic Action" a vampire would have and making clear how - intercept is different than + stealth. Now this section is a few pages. But it really should start with an overview.
  • Actions/modifiers/reactions in Torpor. Several players at the EC where surprised when I self resqued my vampire form torpor and played a Kiss of Ra on the block attempt. It's not in the rulebook that you cannot do it. But it isnt clear you are allowed to either.
    Elaboration?
  • Windows to play reaction cards/out-of-turns. Unclear that you are allowed to play reaction when someone crosstable is acting. Same as others, not forbidden or even explicitly in the rules. confusion with the "you can only block prey pred"
  • In the same vein: You are allowed to attempt completely useless actions (bleed 0, action fizzle bcs can't pay cost, etc...) and waste modifiers attempting them. Not specified.
  • Tapping locking as a cost. Very Very VERY weird "ruling" thats not even in the rulebook. You can pay cost like "Tap a vanpire" with a tapped vampire. Which is completely ridiculous. You have to have blood to pay blood, but dont need an untapped to tap. Yet this is nowhere in the rulebook. It is very distinct from every other cardgame since they don't have this consistency in logic failure.
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06 Feb 2019 19:20 #93306 by narpassword


  • Tapping locking as a cost. Very Very VERY weird "ruling" thats not even in the rulebook. You can pay cost like "Tap a vanpire" with a tapped vampire. Which is completely ridiculous. You have to have blood to pay blood, but dont need an untapped to tap. Yet this is nowhere in the rulebook. It is very distinct from every other cardgame since they don't have this consistency in logic failure.


I don't think you can 'lock x _to_ do y with an already locked vampire.

But if it's not a cost - and is an effect (eg Revelation of Ecstasy) - you can target the vampire and 'lock a locked' vampire.

Name: Revelation of Ecstasy
[LotN:C/PS4]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Serpentis
+1 stealth action.
[ser] (D) Lock one of your prey's ready minions.
[SER] As above, and place a corruption counter on that minion. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds his or her capacity or cost, you may burn those counters to take control of him or her.
Artist: Jim DiBartolo

which yea - isnt great

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