file Mata Hari and Hakim's Law: Leadership

05 Mar 2019 12:02 #93860 by Kraus
The tone of argumentation has been on an edge for a time now. I hope everyone has had their fair share of aggravation.

From here on suggestions for the updated text for Mata Hari may be offered and commented on. Other topics have run their course.

We had one flame war. Another one will not be tolerated. Stick to topic substance only, not other posters.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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05 Mar 2019 14:28 - 05 Mar 2019 14:29 #93864 by TwoRazorReign
The "played as if" effects fit so poorly into the game that no amount of card text is going to describe these effects adequately. Seeds of Corruption was banned because the effect fit so poorly into the game that no amount of text on the card could describe the effects adequately. If the spirit behind banning Seeds of Corruption was to remove effects that fit poorly into the game, why are some of these effects that fit poorly in the game allowed to exist while others get removed?

I understand that these "played as if" effects seem to be more widely used than Seeds of Corruption, and therefore have a ton of rulings explaining the effect that Seeds of Corruption may not have had. I also get that it was easy to ban a card no one used, and it's not as easy to ban many cards that people seem to like using, despite the card text not being able to describe the effect.

But (and I may be alone in thinking this), I think all effects that fit poorly into the game and can't be described by card text alone should be removed. I personally do not use "played as if" effects or Seeds of Corruption, as well as Madness Network, Enkil Cog, and the convoluted card text that is Mask of 1,000 faces. I think the game would benefit if all these things just went bye bye.
Last edit: 05 Mar 2019 14:29 by TwoRazorReign.

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05 Mar 2019 19:07 #93879 by Kraus
Moderation has given very clear instructions not to continue with other posts but those that discuss the original topic: text of Mata Hari.

These instructions are given to be followed, and moderation is not under debate.

Previous posts not on topic were removed, and continuation of non-topic posts will result in the topic being closed.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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07 Mar 2019 10:34 #93954 by Nauro
This thread has given me a small question I'd like to clarify. Should this be deemed worthy a different thread, I'll gladly move.

Mata Hari + Bay and Howl interactions:

Situation 1:
I have Mata Hari ready, a single vampire I have ready.
I have a Gangrel Antitribu in my uncontrolled region.

1) I can play Bay and Howl, and since that card sees Mata Hari as Gangrel antitribu, a blood point is transfered from her to the !gangrel in the uncontrolled region. Is this correct?

Situation 2:
I have Mata Hari and a !Gangrel in my ready region. (Say, Bill Butler)
I have a Gangrel Antitribu in my uncontrolled region.

2). What happens when I play Bay and Howl? 2A or 2B?
2-A: I can choose if I meet the requirements of Bay and Howl wtih Mata Hari, or with Bill Butler. If I play it via Mata Hari's special, two blood are moved to a !gangrel in the uncontrolled. If I play it via Bill Butler, one blood is moved to !gangrel in the uncontrolled region.
2-B I cannot "choose" which minion allows me to meet the requirement of Bay and Howl. Only Bill Butler moves a blood to !gangrel in the uncontrolled.

Repeating relevant card text:
Name: Mata Hari
[KMW:U/PAn]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ravnos
Group: 4
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus for qui CHI OBF
Independent. Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan.
Artist: Steve Prescott


Name: Bill Butler
[Third:V]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gangrel antitribu
Group: 4
Capacity: 3
Discipline: pot pro
Sabbat.
Artist: Glenn Osterberger


Name: Bay and Howl
[KMW:R/PG]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Gangrel antitribu
Master.
Move 1 blood from each ready Gangrel antitribu you control to a Gangrel antitribu in your uncontrolled region.
Artist: Steve Ellis

Logic is for the weak.

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07 Mar 2019 10:37 #93955 by Ankha

Situation 1:
I have Mata Hari ready, a single vampire I have ready.
I have a Gangrel Antitribu in my uncontrolled region.

1) I can play Bay and Howl, and since that card sees Mata Hari as Gangrel antitribu, a blood point is transfered from her to the !gangrel in the uncontrolled region. Is this correct?

Correct.

Situation 2:
I have Mata Hari and a !Gangrel in my ready region. (Say, Bill Butler)
I have a Gangrel Antitribu in my uncontrolled region.

2). What happens when I play Bay and Howl? 2A or 2B?
2-A: I can choose if I meet the requirements of Bay and Howl wtih Mata Hari, or with Bill Butler. If I play it via Mata Hari's special, two blood are moved to a !gangrel in the uncontrolled. If I play it via Bill Butler, one blood is moved to !gangrel in the uncontrolled region.

2-A, correct.

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07 Mar 2019 14:03 #93957 by ed1234
I have a more general question, when is a card actually considered "played", like when am i finished playing a card? when all effects on it have been resolved? or when it hits the table successfully? Is there a difference to be made between action cards, master cards, etc.?
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