file New Blog - Gaming with BS

10 Mar 2016 11:47 #75912 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

S:CE is a wasted card slot when Immortal Grapple is played, and Immortal Grapple is a wasted card slot when S:CE is not played.

Obviously Immortal Grapple is A Mighty Fine ThingTM to play when opponent doesn't pack S:CE, but uses other shenanigans like Ivory Bow, Dodge, Steal Blood, Assault Rifle or whathaveyou...

Finnish :POT: Politics!
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10 Mar 2016 15:37 #75923 by TwoRazorReign

S:CE is a wasted card slot when Immortal Grapple is played, and Immortal Grapple is a wasted card slot when S:CE is not played.

Obviously Immortal Grapple is A Mighty Fine ThingTM to play when opponent doesn't pack S:CE, but uses other shenanigans like Ivory Bow, Dodge, Steal Blood, Assault Rifle or whathaveyou...


...and doesn't also pack maneuvers.

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10 Mar 2016 21:23 - 10 Mar 2016 21:25 #75927 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

S:CE is a wasted card slot when Immortal Grapple is played, and Immortal Grapple is a wasted card slot when S:CE is not played.

Obviously Immortal Grapple is A Mighty Fine ThingTM to play when opponent doesn't pack S:CE, but uses other shenanigans like Ivory Bow, Dodge, Steal Blood, Assault Rifle or whathaveyou...


...and doesn't also pack maneuvers.


You can keep going on like this indefinitely... There are several ways to counter IG and there are 3 ways to counter S:CE.
IG counters 1 card
S:CE counters 0-5 cards.
etc etc etc.

Sounds like balance to me :P

**edit
Correction, IG prevents 1 card from being played, S:CE cancels 0-5 played cards.

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength
Last edit: 10 Mar 2016 21:25 by GreyB.
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11 Mar 2016 16:19 - 11 Mar 2016 16:25 #75941 by TwoRazorReign

Counter cards help V:TES to function as a card game should: with "swingy" outcomes determined randomly by the cards drawn. By arguing that this scenario is “unhealthy,” the author might as well argue that V:TES should be a board game instead of a card game.


While you are certainly correct, the cards themselves also set the boundaries of how much swing is possible. For instance, there is no card that says "Stirke: Deal 1000 damage." Now that is a swingy effect! Either you counter it or you're dead. Similarly, there are no cards that say "Bleed for 1000" - counter or your dead.

So if the cards set the limits on how far the pendulum can swing, all I'm suggesting we do is narrow how far combat can swing. I'm not seeking zero variance (that would be boring!)l, but surely having combat result in nothing or destroying another player's ability to play the game are undesirable outcomes. If you agree that having your action result in absolutely no effect, or if you agree that a single action taken by another player shouldn't remove you from the game, then surely you'll agree with me that these extremes should be discouraged.

If you do like wasting successful actions or watching a single action remove your ability to play the game while forcing you to stay at the table and do nothing... well... I guess we look for different things from our games :)


You are arguing this form a black and white perspective. It's not black and white. Having an action result in no effect and having a single action remove one's ability to play the game aren't the only two outcomes. Those are the extremes. A lot of things need to go right for those extremes to happen, and there is a lot of middle ground before reaching those extremes. One could include 12 Majesty in a 90-card deck but not draw any until it is too late. On can include 10 Bum's Rush, 12 Immortal Grapple and 12 Torn Signpost in a 90-card deck and not draw all three cards at the most opportune time. That's where the middle ground lies, and there is a lot more of it in the game than you seem to suggest with your argument.
Last edit: 11 Mar 2016 16:25 by TwoRazorReign.

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11 Mar 2016 19:08 #75942 by brettscho
Replied by brettscho on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

You are arguing this form a black and white perspective. It's not black and white. Having an action result in no effect and having a single action remove one's ability to play the game aren't the only two outcomes. Those are the extremes. A lot of things need to go right for those extremes to happen, and there is a lot of middle ground before reaching those extremes. One could include 12 Majesty in a 90-card deck but not draw any until it is too late. On can include 10 Bum's Rush, 12 Immortal Grapple and 12 Torn Signpost in a 90-card deck and not draw all three cards at the most opportune time. That's where the middle ground lies, and there is a lot more of it in the game than you seem to suggest with your argument.


Oh, I completely agree with you! Perhaps I didn't do a good job of explaining that I'm seeking to nudge combat more into the grey. The grey (cards played back and forth, moderate damage being dealt to one or both combatants) is what I consider to be ideal. I'm trying to suggest that the black and white ends of the spectrum are undesirable, and yet very much a reality. Let's not kid ourselves - the extremes are not "possibilities" that nobody ever sees in games. They happen, with regularity. They likely don't comprise the majority of combats, but they happen in a significant minority of combats.

So my suggestions are aimed (don't know if they accomplish this or not...) at keeping and encouraging the grey while decreasing the frequency the black and white. And I think one way to do this is to eliminate or drastically reduce the number of S:CE cards, and get rid of counters like Immortal Grapple. As a side benefit, just imagine how happy the !Salubri would be without that single card. Melee weapons could once again be played in our game!

Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

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12 Mar 2016 04:16 #75951 by TwoRazorReign

Oh, I completely agree with you! Perhaps I didn't do a good job of explaining that I'm seeking to nudge combat more into the grey.


You're being clear enough. I just have a hard time understanding the stance that the extreme ends of the combat spectrum (S:CE/IG) are something to be fixed. And you're not the only one arguing this. It's a popular stance. I just don't get it.

Returning to my perception that those types of extremes are features and not problems in card games: when a player plays a rush deck and the deck does what it's supposed to do, the player playing the rush deck probably finds that outcome enjoyable. Why do you want to remove this enjoyment from the game? I understand that it's not enjoyable for the recipient of the rush deck's combat. But losing is losing. It doesn't matter if you are ousted in 10 turns by a rush deck, or ousted in 3 turns by sneak and bleed. They're both losing, and losing is not fun.

So my suggestions are aimed (don't know if they accomplish this or not...) at keeping and encouraging the grey while decreasing the frequency the black and white. And I think one way to do this is to eliminate or drastically reduce the number of S:CE cards, and get rid of counters like Immortal Grapple. As a side benefit, just imagine how happy the !Salubri would be without that single card. Melee weapons could once again be played in our game!


Melee weapons may not work in a highly competitive environment like a tournament. But they certainly can work in casual environments where players have limited card pools, or in environments where players don't have knowledge of how to use S:CE/IG effectively, or in environments where players intentionally play sub-tournament-level decks. I don't think the game should change based on what works and doesn't work in a highly competitive environment.

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