file New Blog - Gaming with BS

05 Mar 2016 09:40 #75780 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS
Combat is a vital part of the game.
But building more or less a pure combat deck that also works well is extremely hard.

Being hacked to bits by combat monsters ain't no fun, but being ousted by focused voters/bleeder ain't any better either.

But (un)life of a vampire ain't no piknik...

Finnish :POT: Politics!

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05 Mar 2016 10:24 #75786 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

Combat is a vital part of the game.
But building more or less a pure combat deck that also works well is extremely hard.

Being hacked to bits by combat monsters ain't no fun, but being ousted by focused voters/bleeder ain't any better either.

But (un)life of a vampire ain't no piknik...


YES Thank you for providing the right angle! Being bled/voted to death in 2-3 turns would be no better or worse than being bashed to death in 2-3 turns. Fact is however, that's currently not really possible and thats the exact problem with rush combat decks.

I would like to see more cards that double as rush and bleed (deep song) or burn pool when you bash a vamp into torpor, perhaps combine the latter with a strike card.

Strike: Deal 2 damage, if the opposing minion is burned or goes to torpor this combat, it's owner burns 2 pool.

So a rush (action) can be used as an alternative +bleed action.
And a strike (combat) can have a burn pool effect.

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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05 Mar 2016 11:17 #75787 by Brum
Replied by Brum on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

Combat is a vital part of the game.
But building more or less a pure combat deck that also works well is extremely hard.

Being hacked to bits by combat monsters ain't no fun, but being ousted by focused voters/bleeder ain't any better either.

But (un)life of a vampire ain't no piknik...


YES Thank you for providing the right angle! Being bled/voted to death in 2-3 turns would be no better or worse than being bashed to death in 2-3 turns. Fact is however, that's currently not really possible and thats the exact problem with rush combat decks.

I would like to see more cards that double as rush and bleed (deep song) or burn pool when you bash a vamp into torpor, perhaps combine the latter with a strike card.

Strike: Deal 2 damage, if the opposing minion is burned or goes to torpor this combat, it's owner burns 2 pool.

So a rush (action) can be used as an alternative +bleed action.
And a strike (combat) can have a burn pool effect.


I disagree with both of you, because you guys are assuming that the combat deck actually ousts its prey or wins the table.
My dislike of combat stems from the fact that is not so very often.
They strike minions down and give the table to a 3rd players. All they do is stop a player from playing and them, themselves, don't win anything with that.
It borders on not playing to win.

I have no problem being ousted in 3 turns by any Predator.
He's deck was good at ousting me, he did good choices in deckmaking or he was incredibly lucky. It happens. That's the game.
A game I love.

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05 Mar 2016 12:26 #75791 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

My dislike of combat stems from the fact that is not so very often.
They strike minions down and give the table to a 3rd players. All they do is stop a player from playing and them, themselves, don't win anything with that.
It borders on not playing to win.


Yes, and that problem is what we seek to remedy...

I made a distinction between lean, complex and average combat earlier. The problem you describe lies in complex combat, one where 5+ combat cards per round are required, leaving little room to stack an ousting strategy in the deck. You don't see this problem much with lean or average combat decks, where it's easier to stack an ousting strategy in the deck.

Whether or not complex combat decks should be viable is a moot point, the cards exist and new cards are designed for complex combat each set, people want to play them and do play them, stagnating the table and generally creating a bad mood. So there is a problem that needs fixing and abolishing complex combat is simply not a realistic option, since it would require removing combat from the game entirely.

If for example there are only 5 combat cards in the entire game, there will be players who cram those 5 cards in a deck creating a complex combat deck that can do nothing but combat and will leave 1 player having a crap game while the table does not move forward.

Now if you change rush cards to double as a D bleed or burn pool when said target goes to torpor or is burnt, you mitigate this problem partially if not entirely (a combat lusting player must be quite stubborn not to stack such cards in their decks).

As far as I see it, to solve the problem you describe, the only 2 options we have is to remove combat from the game (not realistic nor desired) or give rush combat a viable ousting strategy. Since the problem lies not in the game, but in players opting to create decks that do nothing well but combat.

I hope you think more about this angle a bit.

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The following user(s) said Thank You: 2wayspeaker

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05 Mar 2016 13:03 #75793 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

The game is supposed to be about having fun, but when you sit for an hour watching your buddies play, how much fun are you having? Maybe some, but certainly less than if you were still playing.

But while being ousted is bad, being rendered helpless is far, far worse. I personally wince when I see another player have nothing to do on their turn other than discard because their minions are all in torpor, but their predator can't oust them with their all combat deck. It's painful for me even when I'm not the one with no minions. That simply isn't a fun situation, and if it's not fun, it has no place in a game.

How being ousted is bad for the game?
If it's not a problem, what is the difference between being ousted and having a sandwich while watching the end of the game as a spectator, or simply sitting down discarding because you can't do anything that make you feel worse? (Note that in the latter case, there's still a chance that something brings you back in the game)


I'm writing an article about combat as we speak, but essentially I think that combat is a very swingy mechanic - when you take an action to rush, you might accomplish nothing, or you might utterly destroy another player's game. You won't win, you'll just make sure another player stops loses and likely stops having fun. Both from a single action! If possible, combat should be nudged into the center of this spectrum, where entering combat accomplishes something, but doesn't make other another player instantly lose.

Games should (in my opinion) focus on having you win, rather than making everybody else lose. While combat does sort of do both in VTES, it seems to err much more on the side of making others lose. But maybe that's just my weird and wacky perspective.[/quote]

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06 Mar 2016 01:41 #75810 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

Being hacked to bits by combat monsters ain't no fun, but being ousted by focused voters/bleeder ain't any better either.


The whole point is that to be bled is actually better.

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