file A proposition to change Lilith's Blessing and Anthelios

13 Dec 2012 18:29 #42824 by ICL

I strongly believe that new cards can be created to address problems in the game. That's why I do it.


There's a spectrum on how specifically a new card tries to rein in an old. The more specific, generally the worse the card's effect on the game. I quite detest cards intended to hose problems in the game, preferring to either deal with the problem by removing it or changing the metagame in far more subtle ways.

Ideally, new cards get created which have a side effect of reducing the value of old power, rather than specifically trying to curb old power. I particularly like the idea of upgrading old weakness so that the power gap is smaller, possibly so that old weakness becomes new power. After all, relative strength is the only thing that actually matters - a fight broken with broken environment can be a lot of fun, see the Wheel of Time CCG after its first expansion.

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13 Dec 2012 18:36 #42826 by ICL

It is true that Lilith meddles with many strategies.
Combat ? "hey, get me out of torpor, i'll lilith myself up"
attrition ? "it's ok, i'll get some blood during my untap"
smiling jack ? "i can survive for like 3 or 4 turns without spending a single pool until I find/negociate a solution"

All you say is also true with a classical hunting ground. HG gives only 1 blood, but each turn, with no condition, and it doesn't cost a MPA (and it works during the untap so it screws Society of Leopold, Derange etc.)
I think most people are impressed by the Villein combo, but on the long run, HG is more consistent and creates more blood.


When I see comments about how narrowly useful LB is, I wonder if people have played with the card in a variety of decks.

As much as LB + Villein may rock the world, a frequent problem with my decks was attrition to the point where I could survive but not oust in the late game. LB solves that problem like nothing else. It is so easy to get key use out of it because it isn't like a HG.

HGs mostly suck because they are far too narrow and costly, being quickly low returns on investment as the game progresses. I just don't see the similarity between the two. A HG's value is largely determined by time. LB's value is largely determined by number of vampires (that are legal targets).

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13 Dec 2012 19:31 #42827 by Suoli

When I see comments about how narrowly useful LB is, I wonder if people have played with the card in a variety of decks.


I tried it out in several first drafts of deck lists. It was usually the first to go after testing and refinement. Currently, they're only in some casual decks that care about Discipline masters.

As much as LB + Villein may rock the world, a frequent problem with my decks was attrition to the point where I could survive but not oust in the late game. LB solves that problem like nothing else. It is so easy to get key use out of it because it isn't like a HG.


What do you do if you don't draw LB? Play a deck that runs out of gas? Or do you play more than one LB and get dead draws when you need ousting power? I feel this is the central problem with LB: if you rely on it you have to shoot yourself in the foot with dead cards, if you don't rely on and leverage it it's outclassed by other masters.

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13 Dec 2012 19:42 - 13 Dec 2012 19:43 #42828 by Kraus
Well, the thing here is that no deck requires LB to work. If you don't draw it, you just make your first villeins for a little less. When you do draw it, though, it starts paying itself back tenfold pretty quickly. It makes already powerful decks even better, while making mediocre decks only better.

If so many people are saying they find LB very powerful as well, it must have some truth to it. :)

What comes to HG vs LB discussion, I'm not even going to touch that really. They are so different in how they work or are used. Both give blood, yes, but that's basically where the (non-semantic) similarities end.

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Last edit: 13 Dec 2012 19:43 by Kraus.

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13 Dec 2012 19:48 #42829 by Suoli

Well, the thing here is that no deck requires LB to work. If you don't draw it, you just make your first villeins for a little less. When you do draw it, though, it starts paying itself back tenfold pretty quickly. It makes already powerful decks even better, while making mediocre decks only better.


In which case it's not as good as some other masters (plural) I'd like to play.

If so many people are saying they find LB very powerful as well, it must have some truth to it. :)


Better players than me have found it not good enough for tier 1 decks. The TWDA and personal experience seems to corroborate to some degree. In this case, my intuition says that many people are evaluating LB incorrectly. :)

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13 Dec 2012 20:09 #42832 by Jeff Kuta
How so TWDA?

In 2011 of 258 TWD entries, 59 had Lilith's Blessing, not quite 25%.
Thus far in 2012 of 190 TWD entries, 62 had Lilith's Blessing, almost 33%.

I'm not on a campaign here to change the card, but it is pretty powerful and significantly trending toward more widespread inclusion.

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