Nerf on Imbued Powers

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Fall of the cam takes other cards to play.
This does not.

But a Prince/Justicar deck did not face this risk before the printing of Fall of the Camarilla. By the logic you've been arguing, we can say that they shouldn't have faced it, so the card should never have been printed.

Additionally, Fall of the Camarilla isn't in any way temporary, which the suggested card was. So you're apparently just fine with a permanent card that can kill a deck dead, but a temporary card that wastes a few blood is beyond the pale.

Your argument was essentially "Multi-acting doesn't face this risk currently, so it shouldn't face it ever", which is incredibly bizarre in an evolving CCG where every card can present a new challenge for a pre-existing strategy! Archon Investigation didn't exist in Jyhad, so bleed shouldn't face that risk. Protected Resources didn't exist in Jyhad, so bleed shouldn't face that risk. The risks they should face are the ones that are in the game already, and only those, and nothing else, ever. Weird.

Also, that building a deck with the cards to take advantage of multi-acting is, in some backwards manner, a risk. Oh no, I might build a bad deck where I don't have a second action to take, or another reason to be untapped. That totally makes Freak Drive risky, totally. So risky, so, so risky.

Also also, some bizarre assumption that cards that are "good play" shouldn't be meddled with. Majesty enabled good play, but I'm very glad we have Telepathic Tracking!

There are certainly good arguments to be made against the card - in principle, in practise, in its precise wording, or whatever - but your wildly flailing "Don't print cards that interact with good cards that provide a risk they don't currently face" is pretty much completely missing the point of a CCG.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I so admit that tbe countdown makes it less bad, but the dnr clause is super easily met.

I've already suggested simplifying it. In one version, I also give it a cumulative pool cost.

Additionally, the first DNR clause I proposed is not in your hands. You likely wouldn't be playing it in a deck that was using Imbued, Freak Drive, Forced March, Change of Target, Tangle Atropos Hand etc. (I guess you could, but that would be kinda fringey.) So maybe your opponents decide they prefer you not to have the card back for a while.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

The last time i looked, the timer was 3? Maybe at 2

I've said maybe 2, maybe 3, something like that, and X. (X being the most recent.)

It really would help if you read the points being made!

Im not just shooting down the idea for giggles. Fall of the cam is ok in my book due to setup, and cam being very strong anyway. In a second trad deck, i had it played and still ousted my prey. I couldnt second trad or parity shift, but deflection, freak drive, govern, and bleed pump kept me in the game.

My chief issue is the idea is to nerf imbued, which im open to although unconvinced there is a necessity to currently do so. And the card somewhat hurts thier tooling up, but not a ton, but does hurt multiactimg, a strong component if many decks that doesnt really win games alone.

Bleed, majesty, and cam are all things that kinda run rampant if allowed, so cards hurting them are cool with me any day.

For the record, animalism is too strong, and thexpopularity of mmpas makes me very open to master hurting ideas. But, since animalism isnt an end all be all solution to everything, a huge nerf isnt needed currently.

Majesty cheats around combat and untaps, and pre is good at bleeding and voting already, factor in that telepathic tracking isnt nearly as good as majesty, and i dont see your point in comparing it to ai.

I understand your analogies, but the only actually similar card there is happens tocbeximbued-friendly, and taxes superior disciplines being played.

Im more than open to debating why i dislike taxing multiact vs how you feel its good for the evolution of thexgame.
In fact, since ive (to my memory at least) never not agreed with your posts, it may be inciteful.

But, i would like to know if you truly feel this card hurts or impedes imbued more than vampires. They have plenty of tooling anyway, and get free conviction each turn. Multiacting vamps typically could use thexblood better, even if getting it from owain or a hg, they could benefit more from lets say staying untapped and not bleeding instead of paying 1 for govern bleed and 2 to freak drive to remain untapped. Just an exqmple though.

Imbued seemxto care less. Im still unconvinced they need more depowering, but they are a higher priority in the nerfing dept for me than lets say taxing freak drive or making gangrel and HoS harderxto win with.
In fact, master phase actions is the only thing needimg taxed right now. And im a huge fan of Anson 2nd trad decks.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Bleed, majesty, and cam are all things that kinda run rampant if allowed, so cards hurting them are cool with me any day.

Ooh, I know. How about I meddle with a deck's ability to bleed and unntap and play Parity Shift?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I understand your analogies, but the only actually similar card there is happens tocbeximbued-friendly, and taxes superior disciplines being played.

Cost increasers:
Narrow Minds. (Bounce.)
Bureaucratic Overload. (Votes.)
Blood Cult Awareness Network. (Embraces and a few similar items.)
Centralized Background Check. (Weapons.)
All the "Hold" cards: Chiram's (combat), Cold Amber (action), Elder Michaelis (action modifier), Regarhargan's (reaction)
Imprison (very narrow, but strikes used by monsters)
Libertas (Dom/Pre while the anarch acts, primarily going to be bounce, Obedience, S:CE)
Orb of Ulain (similar to Libertas, more disciplines but only reactions)
Slow Withering (superior disciplines)
Terror Frenzy (combat cards)
Conrad Adoula (reactions played by younger vampires while acting)
Nergal Advanced (reactions while acting)


Increasing costs for a specific minion:
Burden the Mind. (Untaps/Wakes for that minion.)
Kaymakli Barrier. (Actions.)
Lock. (Attempting actions or blocks.)

Analogous, but not cost:
Veil of Darkness (can just outright fail a card, persistently)

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Im more than open to debating why i dislike taxing multiact vs how you feel its good for the evolution of thexgame.

If you want to do that, I would strongly suggest not using arguments like "But Freak Drive decks face the risk they might have planned their deck badly and not be able to act!!!1!!one"

ReverendRevolver wrote:

But, i would like to know if you truly feel this card hurts or impedes imbued more than vampires.

It would depend a fair bit on when it was played in a game. And as an event (which can only be played once per game), it gives a bit of scope for the playing Methuselah to time it well or badly. (What "well" or "badly" means would vary from game to game.)

In the early game, it would slow down an Imbued deck tooling up. They're fairly weeniefied, so can be getting a few powers on Turn 2 and 3. Since they get a free untap on each of those actions (currently), they can be hitting turns 3-4 onwards with a couple of powerful abilities and/or some Conviction cards. Take a look at, for example, Preparatório Brasileiro 2013 from the TWDA. Most of its Imbued are 4 capacity (nine 4 cap, two 5 cap, one 3 cap). One out by turn three (possibly turn two), possibly two out by turn three - varying with seating obviously. 13 powers of 60, 22 (!) conviction. Since you can play Conviction from your ash heap, you've probably discarded two already on turn one and two. Nine cards seen. Turn three, you play at least one. Having been three ten cards by now, you've on average seen two Powers already (13/60*10). You might have played a master card, but they're a bit more awkward - 4 Angel of Berlin, 1 Smiling Jack, for example - so you need to time them a bit. Similarly with your events. You might draw into one of your equipment or your one ally (6/60, so roughly one in your first ten cards). But your one Imbued out could potentially play a Power, untap, a second Power, untap. Maybe they get a piece of equipment or that ally. (Note that at this point, I may not have the Conviction to use them, but they don't cost Conviction to play.)

So now I'm facing that deck, and play some sort of card that makes Imbued untapping a little slower. Can that Imbued bring out both Powers that turn? Yes, it still could - it's got a Conviction. If there are two Imbued out, they both have a Conviction. Next turn, it doesn't have the Conviction saved up (though it can play another), so it slows the deck down a little - it can't just immediately Strike with Conviction to bleed, for example. Or maybe it costs the Imbued a life instead, so it can be aggressive, but would be incapacitated more easily.

Get it around turn 5 or 6 and the Imbued deck is a lot less bothered. Yes, it's going to play Powers later, but the tooling up at the start is often the biggest flurry you see.

An Una multi-acting deck (or something similar)? Pull it early and with the currently suggested implementation could be hurt a lot, but it wouldn't necessarily kill it outright. What it would (potentially) do is give other players a potential pause to bolster their defences - or time to punch Una in the face. Either might be acceptable. It's not (quite) a turbo deck that can sweep the table in one turn because it can only bleed once a turn. After it's done a lot of its "Burn through 40-50 Freak Drives and equip/employ everything in sight" setup, the Freak Drives aren't so crucial. (You can end up getting jammed with a hand full of actions, of course, so it may not all happen in one turn.)

A deck of midbies or fatties is typically starting a little more slowly than your typical Imbued deck. If it's more transient focused, it may only be doing two actions in a turn - vote, untap, bleed. You might be getting bits of equipment or retainers, but you might decide that's a waste if - say - you're a Ventrue deck that can just throw down Threats or Conditioning or something, or a Stanislava deck that can do much the same. But the first few turns aren't necessarily the flurry of action that the Imbued deck often sees. You might also find that you're playing Villein or Minion Tap or something similar, to get back some of your pool. (Not an option the Imbued have.) It's hardy uncommon to see a deck bring out a big vampire - say, Queen Anne - and then get back 6 pool from her.

If you take, say, Foreshadowing Destruction Stockholm 2013 as an example, there are 8 Freak Drives out of an 83 card deck (quite a bit lower than the 13/60 powers) with a midbie spread of !Ven, and it splits between bleeding, tooling up a wall, possible bounce etc. Peter Jaworski's winning deck (January 2013) has 8 out of 90, with three each of four big Ventrue. Options include Mind Rape and votes, and cardless bleed. Raul Lara Algarra's deck from December 2012 has 12 Freaks, a spread of vampires, and the ability to bleed, vote, bounce, equip etc. So a lot of this is going to vary from deck to deck. A deck with a couple of very big vampires playing maybe one Freak Drive a turn isn't terribly bothered if you play it early, and would be a bit annoyed if you played it a few turns in, but you're you're probably only costing it one, maybe two blood a turn. A deck with 12 of the things and a wider spread of vampires might well play more of them (it has more, it can take more actions to start with), and losing two, three blood a turn might well be quite annoying. But by now, does the Imbued deck care all that much?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

They have plenty of tooling anyway, and get free conviction each turn. Multiacting vamps typically could use thexblood better, even if getting it from owain or a hg, they could benefit more from lets say staying untapped and not bleeding instead of paying 1 for govern bleed and 2 to freak drive to remain untapped. Just an exqmple though.

Erm, yeah, that's kinda the entire point of the suggested card. It makes the deck reconsider its options. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't. Maybe the deck just can't afford it.

See also: Narrow Minds making you consider whether you want to bounce this bleed or not, because you can't afford to bounce both.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Im still unconvinced they need more depowering, but they are a higher priority in the nerfing dept for me than lets say taxing freak drive or making gangrel and HoS harderxto win with.

The issue that Harbingers often face is that the things they can do aren't that powerful. (Some Gangrel can do some very powerful things, and Deep Song is pretty good.) As people have recently been discussing, Necromancy is a really awkward grab bag that doesn't really empower things much - the Giovanni benefit from having Dominate for, say, Necro power-bleed. The Harbingers do need better things to do, which is a separate issue.

You have convinced me that the proposed card fulfils the task of shutting down some crucial imbued tooling up early game, actions that typically would go unblocked for various reasons. Played later seems more harmful to vampires, since once every imbued in the ready region has several powers, angel of berlin toolup tends to be the optimal kind, and most multi action loving vamps twnd to be 8-10 caps, so its probably turn 4 before you typically can have maryanne blair start pumpimg beads to uncontrolled minions rapidly(turn 5 if you had the misfortune of playing a ten cap star and goimg first....). So, while having it played and gone only hurts some at that point. But if it gets dropped before a key multiacting minion gets to act, its eazily the difference of villeing or not, or possibly tooling up or risking forward actions and then freak drive or not.

Slow withering was the event i referred to with similarity, as it taxes in a similar manner. Narrow mimds is similar, but its way more cut and dry. If you get bled for one, you may want to hold onto those deflections if narrow minds is out. But a bleed of 6@3 stealth is totally worth paying extra to send to your prey. Ive bounced with cock robin during a tournament using lost in translation while narrow minds was out. It was a big bleed, to be fair.

You are very right about deep song being strong, and obviously, necro sucking. I just put those higher on my list of things i dislike about the game than imbued being pestersome. I did some terrible things to an imbued deck during shadow twin of the nac in 2012. Never before or since did i actually apologize to someone playing imbued table poison. I was downwind of stealthbleed with celerity guns, i needed my 6 pool from ousting to put 44s on my support vamps and go to town on my predator.

I crushed 2imbued with volker+44 and parmaneides hands in rushes, bled with anson and aire of elation, then blocked and dropped 2 more with secomd trads. I think he transferred out....

Anyway, i do appreciate the twda backup for your explaination, and im really not trying to troll you. I just dont like the prospect of multiact being hit as part of an imbued nerfing concept(the belief that imbued are tame enough, and opinion that other things need new cards more just added to that.)
I

ReverendRevolver wrote:

My chief issue is the idea is to nerf imbued, which im open to although unconvinced there is a necessity to currently do so.

Why?
Have they currently been dominating TWDA or something?
Totally missed that myself...

I see little benefit from nerfing them in any way (except by getting some variation to them in the form of few odd new card in every upcoming expansion).

Lönkka wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote:

My chief issue is the idea is to nerf imbued, which im open to although unconvinced there is a necessity to currently do so.

Why?
Have they currently been dominating TWDA or something?
Totally missed that myself...

I see little benefit from nerfing them in any way (except by getting some variation to them in the form of few odd new card in every upcoming expansion).

See, thats most of my issue. I dont think they NEED nerfed, but they are strong enough that they could be nerfed and still be strong, i just see no evidence they need to be hurt. They dont have edge explosion or memories of mortality. They arent broken.

I cant see releasing a card in the next set to hose imbued and multiact when there is so much stuff that is more helpful to growing the game.

In fact, i just dislike narrow hosers for things. I like new carthage incidentally screwing ventrue, but that literally being just an afterthought that only seldomly pops up. And new carthage is good, n strong, enables decks, and is just nearly too good but still balanced sort of.

But a card just hampering things im not nuts about, even when it hurts something that needs it. Thus, my issue nerfing something i dont think needs it along with something i know doesnt need hurt with a new card when we could print more interesting things instead.