Card idea: Trust no One

Klaital wrote:

Yes I have ran into Nephandi, last time it was with my Samedi ally deck that smashed the nephandi with shambling hordes, and reanimated corpses with walking sticks, actually.

Gosh. So a fighty deck killed Nephandi? WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE.

Antonio's special is nice but its not that uber because if you are using it then that means you aren't bringing out any vampires so its a trade-off,

Why would you want to bring out anyone other than Antonio? Sure, maybe Keith moody or Brooke somewhere midgame after there's 4-5 Nephandi on the table.

also you can stop it by beating/banishing Antonio. Even if you have no way to kill or steal them, they still only bleed for 1, if your deck can't either kill them or outpace that then there is likely something wrong in your deck to begin with.

Oh I see so that's why Nepahandi are such a great tournament deck choice. All the decks they meet are likely wrong to begin with. FYI, Nephandi don't win by bleeding you out fast. They win by destroying one prey quick and then be last man standing for a 3 VP gamewin. Also, !Tremere have dominate as in-clan and I'm told dominate is pretty good at bleeding for lots.

All good combat decks have a decent ousting module. For example, my !brujah rush deck has 8 legal manipulations in it in addition to 3 fames, 2 tensions, and a dragonbound. I have also won a tournament with a multirush deck with no other forward momentum than bleeds for 1 and fame/tension. So please don't go making generalizing statements like 'combat can't win'.

Oh I see. That's why there are SO MANY combat decks in the TWDA. I'll tell you what - I won my first tournament with flung junk. It had maybe 6 Computer Hacks and 1 Fame. Tension didn't exist. Dragonbound didn't exist. So, sure it can win. Does it win a lot? No of course not. You know why? Because it tends to spend ousting its predator instead of its prey.

You are wrong about garous, they tend to kill pool very fast, your own pool that is. 5 pool for an ally that gets one shotted by target vitals is a serious egg basket. Yes if you happen to be in a table where nobody can fight, then you will be strong, but even just a splash of target vitals will kill garous, they are by far the most fragile of the combat allies, in addition to being the most expensive.

I dunno, but Chandler and 3 Garous is 18 pool. That leaves you with a buffer of 12 which is plenty given that your predator doesn't have any ready minions anyway. Also... Glancing Blow is pretty core in Garou decks. But now we're diverting to specific deck discussions which was not the point of this thread. The point was, would it be nice to have OTHER and NEW cards that can deal with allies in NEW and INTERESTING ways without having to resort to Entrancement and Carrion Crows.

Ankha wrote:

Izaak wrote:

Good grief... Did you people EVER run into Nephandi at all? You are apparently forgetting they have an improved version of the War Ghouls prevent 1 damage each round, strike at range and also have a press. To top it off they can actually bleed too AND can eat vampires in torpor. How is 2 pool not a good deal? It's a freaking *AMAZING* deal. As added bonus they come for a clan that has dominate in-clan and can field a 5-cap vampire that recruits without you being able to stop it *in any way*.

Also, we already established that "anything that fights back" kills allies. In fact, we have already established in dozens of threads that stuff that kills vampires stops most decks from doing anything. Allies die easier than vampires, so OF COURSE combat will stop Nephandi. Anyone that ever played a tournament knows that Nephandi kill anything that doesn't fight and get killed by anything that fights. Of course then we get to the topic where combat isn't a very consistant and viable way to win lots of games and is therefore usually a bad choice for tournaments, bringing me back to my original points that not having tech to counter allies is actually not really a choice in the deck itself, but more a result of what deck you are playing. Ergo, allies are obnoxious to deal with from a deck design point of view which was pretty much the first thing I posted in this thread.

I can't agree more with Izaak. Nephandus are great, and can be impossible to handle for many decks (that is that play defensive combat).

Forum ate my last post, so I'm just going to keep it short this time.
1) Nephandus are great, they are probably one of the best allies in the game and decks featuring them are capable of winning tournaments. No-one is saying otherwise. They are not overpowered.
2) Nephandus do not "kill anything that doesn't fight" as they have no answer to combat ends or no easy way to get into combat. Their 1 bleed is probably their best asset.
3) I have played against and beaten ally decks while playing Stealth Vote, Stealth Bleed, Bruise Vote / Bleed, Wall, Rush Combat, Swarm Bleed, and various other jank decks that are not so easily categorised. I rarely feel the need to include any specific anti-ally tech as usually vampires can do the same things better.
4) Viable Renegade Garou decks have to compromise between playing the Garou, paying it's considerable cost, defending it, and actually trying to oust their prey. This is not a trivial challenge. They don't have the space to do all this and try to reliably recruit it on turn 2 with sup Form of Mist (see the twd for proof if you want). If you want to build a deck that is designed to reliably get a Garou on turn 2 I'll quite happily be in a tournament with you as you won't be on the final table.

Izaak wrote:

Klaital wrote:

Yes I have ran into Nephandi, last time it was with my Samedi ally deck that smashed the nephandi with shambling hordes, and reanimated corpses with walking sticks, actually.

Gosh. So a fighty deck killed Nephandi? WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE.

Antonio's special is nice but its not that uber because if you are using it then that means you aren't bringing out any vampires so its a trade-off,

Why would you want to bring out anyone other than Antonio? Sure, maybe Keith moody or Brooke somewhere midgame after there's 4-5 Nephandi on the table.

also you can stop it by beating/banishing Antonio. Even if you have no way to kill or steal them, they still only bleed for 1, if your deck can't either kill them or outpace that then there is likely something wrong in your deck to begin with.

Oh I see so that's why Nepahandi are such a great tournament deck choice. All the decks they meet are likely wrong to begin with. FYI, Nephandi don't win by bleeding you out fast. They win by destroying one prey quick and then be last man standing for a 3 VP gamewin. Also, !Tremere have dominate as in-clan and I'm told dominate is pretty good at bleeding for lots.

All good combat decks have a decent ousting module. For example, my !brujah rush deck has 8 legal manipulations in it in addition to 3 fames, 2 tensions, and a dragonbound. I have also won a tournament with a multirush deck with no other forward momentum than bleeds for 1 and fame/tension. So please don't go making generalizing statements like 'combat can't win'.

Oh I see. That's why there are SO MANY combat decks in the TWDA. I'll tell you what - I won my first tournament with flung junk. It had maybe 6 Computer Hacks and 1 Fame. Tension didn't exist. Dragonbound didn't exist. So, sure it can win. Does it win a lot? No of course not. You know why? Because it tends to spend ousting its predator instead of its prey.

You are wrong about garous, they tend to kill pool very fast, your own pool that is. 5 pool for an ally that gets one shotted by target vitals is a serious egg basket. Yes if you happen to be in a table where nobody can fight, then you will be strong, but even just a splash of target vitals will kill garous, they are by far the most fragile of the combat allies, in addition to being the most expensive.

I dunno, but Chandler and 3 Garous is 18 pool. That leaves you with a buffer of 12 which is plenty given that your predator doesn't have any ready minions anyway. Also... Glancing Blow is pretty core in Garou decks. But now we're diverting to specific deck discussions which was not the point of this thread. The point was, would it be nice to have OTHER and NEW cards that can deal with allies in NEW and INTERESTING ways without having to resort to Entrancement and Carrion Crows.

If you count a deck with around 16 combat cards, third of them s:ce as a fighty deck... sure.

Try to make up your mind, first you say you are only bringing out Antonio and then churn out nephandi, then you say that you have a horde of dom vampires out to bleed your prey out with, can't have both without recruiting the nephandi the old fashioned way.

Also, exactly how are you going to 'destroy your prey' with allies that bleed for 1? Like I said, if your deck can't handle a couple guys bleeding it for 1 with no stealth, whether they are allies or vampires, then that deck has some issues no matter what its predator is playing.

I already gave you a long list of cards that either kill/steal allies or make your actions unblockable by allies no matter how much intercept they have while still being perfectly useful even if you never see any allies several posts ago.

If you think that 'if you play allies I oust you with one action' card is -interesting- then I don't know what to say, its a stupid hoser similar to scourge of the enochians that shouldn't exist.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

You're forgetting one of the major advantages of a Nephandus:
1R strike
All damaging strikes deal 1 less damage (so the ol' 1-hands + TV does nothing).

Admittedly in my deck, I'm trying to make up for the lack of maneuver by Biothaum Experiments (for the durability of the BioThaum). It's a great grinding deck that if it can get itself up and running with enough allies (also uses Impundulu, Succubus, Rafastio, Greg Winter & Talaq) it will keep at least one player constantly hunting and with a Restricted Vitae it can lockdown two players. Which is how it gets its 3VPs or 0VPs.

<off topic> Hunger moon is also very good in such decks, and Guide and Mentor so your own vampires can take a +1 stealth action to gain 1 blood as a non-hunt action
</off topic>

If you count a deck with around 16 combat cards, third of them s:ce as a fighty deck... sure.

Whaaat? Your Reanimated Corpses, Sticks AND Shambling Hordes are 16 cards total? Does one Shambler actually hit the table, like, ever?

Oooh you mean 16 red cards. I see. Shamblers can't fight without red cards and Corpses don't punch for 2 either. I see, I see.

Try to make up your mind, first you say you are only bringing out Antonio and then churn out nephandi, then you say that you have a horde of dom vampires out to bleed your prey out with, can't have both without recruiting the nephandi the old fashioned way.

I'm being pretty clear, actually. Try to read again.

Also, exactly how are you going to 'destroy your prey' with allies that bleed for 1? Like I said, if your deck can't handle a couple guys bleeding it for 1 with no stealth, whether they are allies or vampires, then that deck has some issues no matter what its predator is playing.

I'll tell you the secret: Nephandus plays Harass. Nephandus enters combat with prey's vampire. Nephandus hits for 1. Presses from Harass. Hits for 1 again. Presses with special. Hits for 1 again. All the while you *cannot touch it*. If no S:CE has been see yet, Nephandus plays trap on the third round. Prey's vampire dies. Some people like to mix in Molotov cocktails too and just outright burn them.

If you think that 'if you play allies I oust you with one action' card is -interesting- then I don't know what to say, its a stupid hoser similar to scourge of the enochians that shouldn't exist.

Maybe you should start reading my posts instead of randomly putting words in my mouth. I would have liked to have OTHER and MORE INTERESTING ways to deal with allies than just killing them or playing Entrancement. I also gave 3 examples that I made up in 15 seconds. Cards that are worth including in decks. Cards that are not fucking Far Mastery or Restructure. Basically like Legend of the Leopard but then with something useful on it. Shit that punishes people for mindlessly relying on allies, just as deflection punishes people that mindlessly rely on their Conditionings.

You seem to think I somehow think allies are too strong or that it's impossible to play against them. It is not and other than Nephandus bullshit, ally based decks are tier 2 at best.

See, what I would like to be able to do is get around Carlton + Unmasking without being forced to contest him (or play obfuscate). I want options. Options that don't suck. There is one such card in the game. It's called Entrancement.