Card idea: Trust no One

So your Nephandus deck cheats? Trap can only be played on first round of combat.

Reanimated Corpses and Shambling Hordes aren't combat cards no, and I count Reanimated Corpse as more a bleeder than fighter anyway, its just a nice bonus that it also punches for 2. Only combat cards in that deck are 6x Fake Out, 4x Spiritual Intervention, and 6x WWS.

Carlton is pretty easy to kill, all you need is either IG, additional strike, press, or environmental damage. He is also unique so its not like you will be facing a horde of Carltons, at worst case and you can't handle him he will only block one action a turn without doing anything to your acting guy.

Also for the third time, I gave a big list of cards in addition to Entrancement that you can use to deal with allies in addition to punch for 3+.

Thinking about how you are going to deal with allies is a deckbuilding challenge, no different from how you are going to deal with votes, or intercept, or stealth bleed, or combat, hell, for most parts you can use same cards to deal with allies than you use to deal with either stealth bleed or combat so it doesn't neseccarily even require anything extra.

Basically what your saying is that you want to be able to destroy an entire strategy with side effects from cards you would play anyway. Thats like saying that I want a card that at basic discpline bounces a bleed and at superior gives +3 bleed because putting both conditionings and deflections in my deck is not efficient enough. If you want to deal with allies with your dominate deck, play far mastery, its kind of the same as playing deflection and having a predator that doesn't bleed. Sometimes it happens, but there is usually always at least Carlton or Mylan around to target with your far mastery so its very rarely a dead card, and even if it is, its not that much of an issue to discard it.

Izaak wrote:

I'll tell you the secret: Nephandus plays Harass. Nephandus enters combat with prey's vampire. Nephandus hits for 1. Presses from Harass. Hits for 1 again. Presses with special. Hits for 1 again. All the while you *cannot touch it*. If no S:CE has been see yet, Nephandus plays trap on the third round. Prey's vampire dies. Some people like to mix in Molotov cocktails too and just outright burn them.

Have you actually checked the TWD archive to see what's in winning Nephandus decks? It may surprise you.

If you think that 'if you play allies I oust you with one action' card is -interesting- then I don't know what to say, its a stupid hoser similar to scourge of the enochians that shouldn't exist.

Maybe you should start reading my posts instead of randomly putting words in my mouth. I would have liked to have OTHER and MORE INTERESTING <snip>
[/quote]

Izaak wrote:

But now we're diverting to specific deck discussions which was not the point of this thread. The point was, would it be nice to have OTHER and NEW cards that can deal with allies in NEW and INTERESTING ways

Since the point of this thread is quite evidently to discuss a specific card example, and further discussion that has arisen around it, you are clearly implying that you consider the card in question to be "new and interesting". If this was not your intention, perhaps you should try to be more clear.

You seem to think I somehow think allies are too strong or that it's impossible to play against them. It is not and other than Nephandus bullshit, ally based decks are tier 2 at best.

See, people think you think allies are too strong because you're advocating card ideas to make them weaker.

See, what I would like to be able to do is get around Carlton + Unmasking without being forced to contest him (or play obfuscate). I want options. Options that don't suck. There are so many such cards in the game I don't know which one to use.

Fixed that for you.

Then people fail at reading.

I guess I'll just quote it up for you because apparently the two of you have reading issues. Here we go:

First one:

I dunno... I'm up for more ways to deal with ally decks that don't involve "play presence or combat".

I'm not sure if a political action is the way to go, it being so tied up to presence and everything, but something that would be good against Nephandus or Ghouls would be nice.

See, here I'm saying I'm not too sure if I like the proposed card. Nowhere near implying I actually like the proposed hoser.

Next!

I'm not saying allies are too strong or anything. I just think they're obnoxious to deal with from a deck design point of view.

That quite literally writes the opposite of what you two are reading. *I* should be more clearer? Maybe I should write in caps then?

Third one!

I'm not saying that I have issues dealing with allies in general. Neither do I think they are too strong or anything.

LOOK! I even fucking REPEATED IF for you. My god. After this the discussion kinda degenerates into some random discussion why Nephandi are apparently not a good deck.

See, people think you think allies are too strong because you're advocating card ideas to make them weaker.

Actually, no. I'm advocating having other options that do shit with allies that are not completely unplayable when there are not allies on the table. AND I gave three examples so I'm completely in the dark how you come to these conclusions.

There are so many such cards in the game I don't know which one to use.

By all means keep sticking shit like Restructure and Bloodform in your decks.

Izaak, I posted up a long list of cards that are excellent against allies and still good if you never see any, I have pointed that out three times now, and you still keep ignoring it so I am not sure who here has difficulties reading.

People have to put cards in their decks that are only useful against a single strategy to deal with other things too so why should allies be any exception. Like I don't see you whining that you have to put Redirections or Deflections in your deck that are only useful against bleeds, or Delaying Tactics just to deal with votes, etc. And since both ally cards and political action cards are a subset of action cards, why should one be easier to deal with than the other? Especially if vote decks in general are more effective than ally decks.

There are more than enough ways to deal with allies as it is, I am fairly sure that every clan has at least one ally hoser in their discplines, and on top of those there are many discplineless options also.

Izaak wrote:

Then people fail at reading.

Pot, meet kettle

I dunno... I'm up for more ways to deal with ally decks that don't involve "play presence or combat".

And both I and Klaital have supplied you with various ways. He gave a list of specific cards, I gave some general deckbuilding points.

LOOK! I even fucking REPEATED IF for you. My god. After this the discussion kinda degenerates into some random discussion why Nephandi are apparently not a good deck.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure if you read what I've written you'll see I called them one of the strongest allies in the game.
They still win less games than KRC does though.

See, people think you think allies are too strong because you're advocating card ideas to make them weaker.

Actually, no. I'm advocating having other options that do shit with allies that are not completely unplayable when there are not allies on the table. AND I gave three examples so I'm completely in the dark how you come to these conclusions.

Well it's like this, the more hosers there are for a particular strategy, the weaker that strategy is. The less opportunity cost there is to those hosers, the more they are likely to weaken the strategy in question.
So the cards you are advocating would, by existing, make allies weaker. Hence, you are advocating making allies weaker.

I find this hate against allies quite random. I can understand hate against some decks that are dominant like girls or DEM weenie. Is the point more that it is not fun to play against allies? But even that point I don't understand. There are so many others good "my prey doesn't play" decks like Tupdog or Nana. So what makes ally decks so bad? Even limited options against allies is not so valid reason, options against heavy bleeds are more limited than options against allies anyway.