file Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

09 Mar 2018 12:43 #85648 by TwoRazorReign

It does not interact with vast swathes of the game.

Again, Same can be said about Malk94.

Not to the same extent. Being an ally makes you immune to a lot of cards (staple or not). The few cards that Imbued are vulnerable to as allies are mostly countered by a Conviction they come into play with.


Again, you ever see an imbued vote? Or Villein? They have other weaknesses that make up for what you describe above.

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09 Mar 2018 13:09 - 09 Mar 2018 13:14 #85649 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

It does not interact with vast swathes of the game.

Again, Same can be said about Malk94.

Not to the same extent. Being an ally makes you immune to a lot of cards (staple or not). The few cards that Imbued are vulnerable to as allies are mostly countered by a Conviction they come into play with.


Again, you ever see an imbued vote? Or Villein? They have other weaknesses that make up for what you describe above.

I haven't seen a Malk '94 vote neither, nor play Villein. Is it a "weakness"? I think not.
The real question is not "can the deck play those cards ?" but "does this hinder the deck ?".
They have those same "weaknesses" as many other decks, but they have the unique "immune to everything that targets blood or vampires" ability that disables a lot of cards that would affect those decks.
The reverse isn't true as the cards that would affect them but not those decks are very few, and the most frequent ones (Entrancement, Far Mastery, ...) are not very effective against them (because of React with Conviction).
So basically you end up in a game with very few interactions between Imbued and other decks which is lame in a game of interactions.

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Last edit: 09 Mar 2018 13:14 by Ankha.

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09 Mar 2018 16:15 #85651 by TwoRazorReign

It does not interact with vast swathes of the game.

Again, Same can be said about Malk94.

Not to the same extent. Being an ally makes you immune to a lot of cards (staple or not). The few cards that Imbued are vulnerable to as allies are mostly countered by a Conviction they come into play with.


Again, you ever see an imbued vote? Or Villein? They have other weaknesses that make up for what you describe above.

I haven't seen a Malk '94 vote neither, nor play Villein. Is it a "weakness"? I think not.


Well, it is a weakness. What happens to the Imbued deck when an Ancient Influence or Reins of Power hits the table? Nothing good. But, I understand your point that there's still vast amounts of cards that don't affect Imbued. I'm just not sure if this is really a problem.

The real question is not "can the deck play those cards ?" but "does this hinder the deck ?".
They have those same "weaknesses" as many other decks, but they have the unique "immune to everything that targets blood or vampires" ability that disables a lot of cards that would affect those decks. The reverse isn't true as the cards that would affect them but not those decks are very few, and the most frequent ones (Entrancement, Far Mastery, ...) are not very effective against them (because of React with Conviction).
So basically you end up in a game with very few interactions between Imbued and other decks which is lame in a game of interactions.


Right. And if I understand you correctly, by "lame" you mean there's something wrong design wise with this. I'm really not smart enough of a VTES player to truly understand if Imbued are a design problem. All I do know is there are things in the game that can counteract Imbued decks. So to me, and my (very feeble understanding) of what a design problem is, the presence of things that counteract Imbued decks makes me think Imbued are solid design wise. The problem is less with design and more with personal taste (eg, too much of a deviation from "normal" decks).

Now, if by "lame" you mean simply "not fun," that's personal taste. While it may not be fun for you, the person playing the Imbued deck is having loads of fun not interacting and winning, right?
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09 Mar 2018 17:31 - 09 Mar 2018 17:36 #85653 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Now, if by "lame" you mean simply "not fun," that's personal taste. While it may not be fun for you, the person playing the Imbued deck is having loads of fun not interacting and winning, right?

No, by lame I mean that it ruins a basic principle of V:TES which is interactions between players. Not being able to interact with an Imbued deck (apart of blocking) because most of the cards interact with vampires, not allies, is against the core of the game.

(This can be extended to other decks for other reasons, for instance decks where the player plays alone or with just another player for 30 minutes [Turbo Una, Reversal of Fortune, etc.] but that's outside the scope of Imbued).

The fact that players get bored (not fun") of it is a consequence of the lack of interactions.

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Last edit: 09 Mar 2018 17:36 by Ankha.

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09 Mar 2018 18:58 #85654 by LivesByProxy

Now, if by "lame" you mean simply "not fun," that's personal taste. While it may not be fun for you, the person playing the Imbued deck is having loads of fun not interacting and winning, right?


Here is something interesting and pertinent to the conversation:

From League of Legends' VP of Game Design, Tom 'Zileas' Cadwell's Game Design Anti-Patterns :


[When] Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic.


This reasoning behind 'anti-fun' is the same reasoning that prompted Wizards of the Coast to basically cut 'land destruction' as a strategy from modern-day MTG, and to nerf their counter-spells as well. They felt (and heard from player feedback) that a game wherein one player is playing solitaire while the other player is more or less locked out of playing the game is lame.

It should be noted that in MTG, decks that are basically anti-fun still exist in the Legacy and Vintage formats, but survive because everyone is generally playing such a deck. Decks that kill or combo for the win on the 1st or 2nd turn, or establish a lock on the opponent (i.e. a 'prison' deck) that prevents them from interacting for the next 6 turns while they lose, are the norm. And in League of Legends, some anti-fun design patterns still exist, but Riot Games is working on updating, reworking, and / or patching out those abilities in hope of improving the player experience.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.
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09 Mar 2018 19:09 #85656 by Kushiel
Replied by Kushiel on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

No, by lame I mean that it ruins a basic principle of V:TES which is interactions between players. Not being able to interact with an Imbued deck (apart of blocking) because most of the cards interact with vampires, not allies, is against the core of the game.


This is baffling to me. Aside from minion theft cards which are restricted to targeting vampires, which aren't a good example since there are also minion theft cards which are restricted to targeting allies, what are the forms of interaction that are available to vampires but not imbued?
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