Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

henrik wrote:

4.1 in the tournament rules states that

If cards with distinct backs are used in the same deck (e.g., Jyhad and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle cards, or upside-down 3rd Edition cards and right-side up cards, or mis-cut cards) are used, in order to prevent a significant advantage, all cards from the different sets, printings, etc. must be of sufficiently mixed card type.

What does "significant advantage" mean?

Knowledge of the card to draw would be "significant advantage".

henrik wrote:

Does the usage of the word "significant" indicate that minor advantages from using cards with different backs is ok?

Yes.
Players already have minor advantages. It's called "your decklist" (or "the cards in your deck"). "I really need a Deflection, should I discard? Let's see.. I've drawn a total of 10 cards without one, and I play 10 copies in 90 cards. So this card on the top of my library has a 78% chance of being a Deflection."

henrik wrote:

In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?

Because minor advantage is ok.


Discussing this subject more would end with a (bad, I think) ruling of this kind:

When using Jyhad cards, a player must follow these:
- each card of a card must have X% (pick any convenient number) (round down) of its copies in the deck with Vampire backs ("All your Parity Shits aren't Jyhad")
- if a deck contains at least 1 Jyhad back card, it must contain at least Y (pick any convenient number) different cards with Jyhad backs ("all your Jyhad cards aren't Parity Shifts")
- if a deck contains at least 1 Jyhad back cardtype, it must contain at least Z (pick any convenient number) different cardtypes with Jyhad backs ("All your Jyhad cards aren't Political Actions")

But this would require smart values for X, Y and Z, where "smart" means "non-affecting deckbuilding".
Cards of Third Edition aren't an issue.

Pascal wrote:

henrik wrote:

4.1 in the tournament rules states that

If cards with distinct backs are used in the same deck (e.g., Jyhad and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle cards, or upside-down 3rd Edition cards and right-side up cards, or mis-cut cards) are used, in order to prevent a significant advantage, all cards from the different sets, printings, etc. must be of sufficiently mixed card type.

What does "significant advantage" mean?

Knowledge of the card to draw would be "significant advantage".

Once the library or crypt starts to diminish, that knowledge comes. A crypt with 6 Jyhad backs and 6 VTES backs can get quite good knowledge of their top crypt card from the start of the game if they draw 4 Jyhad backs in their uncontrolled region and has a Jyhad back on top of their crypt.

Pascal wrote:

henrik wrote:

Does the usage of the word "significant" indicate that minor advantages from using cards with different backs is ok?

Yes.
Players already have minor advantages. It's called "your decklist" (or "the cards in your deck"). "I really need a Deflection, should I discard? Let's see.. I've drawn a total of 10 cards without one, and I play 10 copies in 90 cards. So this card on the top of my library has a 78% chance of being a Deflection."

The difference would be that, later in the game, even with a "good" mix of Jyhad and VTES backs you could easily count that to being 100%. A deck with 45 Jyhad backs and 45 VTES backs might very well end up having the last 15 cards being 1 Jyhad and 14 VTES.
Even with 2 Jyhad backs and 13 VTES and the Jyhad cards being different you can narrow your chances quite a lot (instead of 1/15 it's 1/2).

Pascal wrote:

henrik wrote:

In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?

Because minor advantage is ok.

I assume this means that using sleeves of different colour and type in the same library/crypt is allowed as well?

Pascal wrote:

Discussing this subject more would end with a (bad, I think) ruling of this kind:

When using Jyhad cards, a player must follow these:
- each card of a card must have X% (pick any convenient number) (round down) of its copies in the deck with Vampire backs ("All your Parity Shits aren't Jyhad")
- if a deck contains at least 1 Jyhad back card, it must contain at least Y (pick any convenient number) different cards with Jyhad backs ("all your Jyhad cards aren't Parity Shifts")
- if a deck contains at least 1 Jyhad back cardtype, it must contain at least Z (pick any convenient number) different cardtypes with Jyhad backs ("All your Jyhad cards aren't Political Actions")

But this would require smart values for X, Y and Z, where "smart" means "non-affecting deckbuilding".
Cards of Third Edition aren't an issue.

I agree that a ruling of that kind would be somewhat horrible, both to follow and to enforce. However, discussing the subject more could also end with a rule about mandatory sleeving.

I just did a little test. Semi-random cards; the first card of every unique set (excluding promo cards) in my unsorted pile of cards. Try it yourself.

The top row is the blue-tinted sets ordered by fullness of colour. The bottom row is the green-tinted sets ordered by fullness of colour.

Comparing Third (the least full of blue tint) with Keepers of Tradition (the most full of green tint).

Comparing Final Nights (the most full of blue tint) with Keepers of Tradition (the most full with green tint)

This is not even handled by the tournament rules.

henrik wrote:

Pascal wrote:

henrik wrote:

In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?

Because minor advantage is ok.

I assume this means that using sleeves of different colour and type in the same library/crypt is allowed as well?

No.
If you're using sleeves, they must all be of the same factory.
I should restate my earlier message:
"Minor advantage from prints is ok, because making it not ok would be too much of a pain."
We can enforce "same sleeves if you're using sleeves" because sleeves come in packs of 50/100.

Ye see, this is where it becomes blurry.

So I *can* use 45 Jyhad backed cards and 45 VTES backed cards, but I *cannot* use 45 black sleeves and 45 green sleeves. Yet, this is *exactly* the same thing.

"Minor advantage from prints is ok, because making it not ok would be too much of a pain."
We can enforce "same sleeves if you're using sleeves" because sleeves come in packs of 50/100.

You could just enforce sleeves; that's hardly a pain. Ye, sure some people don't use sleeves for reasons I probably won't ever understand, but you're already doing it if decks have any of the VEKN-issued printed cards in them anyway. Magic does that and has been doing it forever.

Presumably people are more likely to cheat in Magic because there's so much money associated with it whereas VTES is just a bunch of hobby guys playing a niche game without any real prices, let alone price money.

I'm not saying people cheat, because I like to believe VTES players in general don't cheat, but really... it's so damned easy with all these different card backs.

Izaak wrote:

Ye see, this is where it becomes blurry.

So I *can* use 45 Jyhad backed cards and 45 VTES backed cards, but I *cannot* use 45 black sleeves and 45 green sleeves. Yet, this is *exactly* the same thing.

I harly see how. In the first case, you're using cards as you got them.
In the second case, you're deliberately using different sleeves.