Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

I don't think card sleeves go far enough.

My proposal is that everybody playing in a VTES tournament must have a sticker that says "I AM NOT A CHEATER" and wear it on their shirt while playing. Because everyone will be wearing a sticker, you can be confident that nobody at the tournament is cheating. It's a win-win scenario!

You may purchase these stickers from me for $10 each, plus shipping and handling. I will setup the website order form shortly. Counterfeit stickers will not be tolerated.

Surreal wrote:

I don't think cheating is so important in this discussion. Cheaters will find way with whatever. I just feel non sleeve decks with jyhad backs offers me automatically more information of my deck than sleeved does. This advantage is also available for very player and not necessary "cheating".

Certainly, using the very clearly different card backs of 'Jyhad' and 'V:TES' could be an issue of information, and possibly cheating. The issue is that it COULD BE, not that it IS. That difference between 'is' and 'could be' is the heart of the matter of sleeves vs no sleeves.

I know a player that bought dozens of Jyhad boxes, and he moves cards into and out of decks with little regard for what backs he is using. (You could add 3rd into this, as well, since the card backs got printed upside-down.) We joke with him that he is using a Jyhad card when we see the back, but it could be a Blood Doll or Ivory Bow as easily as it could be a WWEF or a Computer Hacking. He doesn't intentionally do anything, doesn't have any special knowledge and doesn't care as to what card back he is using, so there is no extra information there in any way despite what some may argue. He has seriously asked me about the rules and I've told him that, unless he plays in Europe, no one is going to say anything to him about it ever, including the European players that attend North American events (in my experience, they've never said anything ever, so there's no reason that they would start saying something).

Surreal wrote:

EDIT
This can be cultural thing also. I think almost everybody sleeves decks in Europe.

Which is why I said something about the known French cheaters (Henrik's snarky reply notwithstanding) because I think that having cheaters involved in play, as I've been told that they were in tournaments in France and at some ECs for YEARS, has put the idea of cheating into European player's heads, whereas in North America there has never been, to the best of my knowledge, a case of cheating at any tournament ever.

Either that, or Europeans are more distrustful in general. Or some other reason that we haven't stumbled on yet, that differentiates (some) Europeans from (most) Americans in this regard.

KevinM wrote:

Brum wrote:

EDIT: I don't understand how it is possible to be against Proxies by counter argumentation of the money issue for new players, and claim that the cost is an issue for sleeves and that it would be a barrier to new players. Yeah, I'm looking at you Kevin

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you be more specific so that I can respond?

You (and not only you) wrote that the price of some chase cards (Villein, Ashur Tablets, etc) is not a good enough reason to stop new players from entering the game. I agreed with your arguments.
You wrote that the price of sleeves for a deck might be an issue to keep new players away.

Sorry, I'm very tired. My English was awful.

KevinM wrote:

Either that, or Europeans are more distrustful in general. Or some other reason that we haven't stumbled on yet, that differentiates (some) Europeans from (most) Americans in this regard.

I can think of some reasons:
- People from completely different countries and cultures traveling between countries gives way to "some" suspicion. Not on purpose, but it's there.
- Many players like to be professional as much as they can.
- Many more players in Europe, many different backgrounds, ergo more chances of someone cheating.
- Maybe in the US everyone knows each other. Or they come from the playgroup of someone you know. That gives way to a much healthier atmosphere, IMO. For instance if I receive a regular from Atlanta or LA, I will subconsciously trust him more than someone I don't have any reference from. That doesn't mean I'll be suspicious of strangers. Really. I hope people understand that.
We love receiving players from abroad and we've done so without any problems!
- More players in Europe -> more chance of one of them being rotten.

KevinM wrote:

Certainly, using the very clearly different card backs of 'Jyhad' and 'V:TES' could be an issue of information, and possibly cheating. The issue is that it COULD BE, not that it IS. That difference between 'is' and 'could be' is the heart of the matter of sleeves vs no sleeves

Jyhad cards with no sleeves is automatically more information in every deck than all sleeved deck. I can't think how this argument can be turned. The question is can it be too much information within tournament rules. And this not discussion about cheating so much.

It is also impossible to draw a line which is "significant advantage" or "very cleary different card backs". That thing is easily abused. Am I cheating or just having small advantage if almost half of my decks cards cost blood and I use only jyhad/3ed cards for them? What about if I don't have any master cards or cards I can play out-of-turn as jyhad cards? There can be many those kind of examples. When it is small advantage and when it is cheating? Small advantage is there everytime with jyhad cards but can it be too much sometime?

Brum wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Brum wrote:

EDIT: I don't understand how it is possible to be against Proxies by counter argumentation of the money issue for new players, and claim that the cost is an issue for sleeves and that it would be a barrier to new players. Yeah, I'm looking at you Kevin

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you be more specific so that I can respond?

You (and not only you) wrote that the price of some chase cards (Villein, Ashur Tablets, etc) is not a good enough reason to stop new players from entering the game. I agreed with your arguments. You wrote that the price of sleeves for a deck might be an issue to keep new players away.

The difference is that there is no need to own Villein/Ashur/etc, nor any card for that matter, to be able to competitively play the game of VTES. There are LOTS of decks you can make without these cards, especially now that Villein's card text got changed. If you CHOOSE to obtain certain pricey cards, either now via eBay or trading, or, as I did, by purchasing ten to twenty boxes of each booster set for the last 10 years, that is a choice.

The sleeve discussion is about being FORCED to use sleeves, and the cost, time factor, and comfort issues involved.

Granted, it's probably less about a price comparison than a freedom comparison, but price is still in there at some fundamental level. And if the cost of sleeves (or Villeins/Ashur's) isn't an issue for some players, they can give away all that they wish.