Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

Brum wrote:

More players -> more chance of one of them being rotten.

Perhaps that's a fundamental difference between the pro-force sleeves and the anti-force sleeves crowd? The pro-force sleeves crowd believes that as the number of gamers becomes larger, there is a chance approaching 100% that one of them will be a cheater, and the anti-force sleeves crowd doesn't believe this.

KevinM wrote:

Perhaps that's a fundamental difference between the pro-force sleeves and the anti-force sleeves crowd? The pro-force sleeves crowd believes that as the number of gamers becomes larger, there is a chance approaching 100% that one of them will be a cheater, and the anti-force sleeves crowd doesn't believe this.

For me the reason is with sleeving all the problems with jyhad and coming pdf cards can be done with very easy way. Plus I guess over 95% sleeve their decks here anyway so it wouldn't be big change in here.

Surreal wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Certainly, using the very clearly different card backs of 'Jyhad' and 'V:TES' could be an issue of information, and possibly cheating. The issue is that it COULD BE, not that it IS. That difference between 'is' and 'could be' is the heart of the matter of sleeves vs no sleeves

Jyhad cards with no sleeves is automatically more information in every deck than all sleeved deck.

Except for the player that I mentioned. Except for other players like that, of whom I can name several (not a lot, but several). Except for them. So, not automatically.

Surreal wrote:

I can't think how this argument can be turned. The question is can it be too much information within tournament rules. And this not discussion about cheating so much.

I agree, it isn't about cheating. It's about fear. Either fear, or the tournament rules haven't been working perfectly well for thousands of tournaments so far.

Surreal wrote:

It is also impossible to draw a line which is "significant advantage" or "very clearly different card backs". That thing is easily abused.

I'm sure at this point, someone would say: Evidence, please?

(Note that *I* don't think you need evidence for such a thing, since I agree with you, but I'm sure some person that has posted in this thread more than once who likes demanding evidence would demand you provide it.)

Surreal wrote:

Am I cheating or just having small advantage if almost half of my decks cards cost blood and I use only jyhad/3ed cards for them?

That depends on if you're a cheater or not. Since, by definition, if you aren't a cheater, you're gaining nothing.

Surreal wrote:

What about if I don't have any master cards or cards I can play out-of-turn as jyhad cards? There can be many those kind of examples. When it is small advantage and when it is cheating?

When you're a cheater, you're a cheater. when you're not -- such as the player in my example -- then you're not. Which is why I asked for that line to be striken from the rules.

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to see the pro-sleevers' point. Having sleeves does create a more standardized environment in tournament play. Overall, it would be better to require sleeves than not to require sleeves.

That said, if I go to a casual local tournament, such as the ones in LA or the ones I attended in San Jose over the summer, I just don't see the need for it. Some people sleeve, some don't. I don't think people are trying to use card backs for an advantage. There are some newer or very casual players who probably aren't even capable of using it to their advantage.

Having played in the 2010 EC, I can see Tiago's point that in Europe people's trust level might be lower.

For me it's not so much that I believe people are cheating a lot, but more that the tournament rules allows a kind of marked cards. I find this very strange, and I think it makes calling the real cheaters on cheating harder.

I would love to see a decklist (with sets included) that doesn't give any extra information to the player when (for example) their library is down to 10 cards and only 1 of them have a Jyhad back. Since all the other cards will be visible for the player in some way, xe can easily get information xe shouldn't have access to. (Cards like Erciyes Fragments can potentially hide a small part of the information, but that's quite rare and it's announced when taken.)

I too have always thought it is totally silly that the tournament rules allow you to mark cards. I understand that this is not perceived a problem over in the US where people apparently play unsleeved a lot and in Europe literally everyone plays with sleeves.

Sure, so we all assume people don't cheat, but with the rules as they are it's *extremely easy* to actually do so.