Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

I think we are discussing a rather pointless issue and with some unreal arguments (I'll give two examples):

- "It is easier to cheat with sleeves"
One can make a deck without sleeves where only the Deflections or the Freak Drives are Jyhad. I think this example counters the quoted statement.
True story: I break my Predator's deck. He draws his first 7 cards. His 8th card is Jyhad. He says "You're screwed" with a smile.
I ask why. He says "I know what card that is".
This player was a known cheater. Thank the Lords of Kobol he's also very stupid.

- "It is easier to shuffle without sleeves"
This is not an absolute truth. Physically it is the opposite.
People who know me personally, know where I'm coming from here.
With sleeves, specially new ones, there's much less friction. To the point that people complain that the cards slide off stack (another argument).
I find it MUCH easier to shuffle (I do it well with or without sleeves), because I need to have less grip on the cards.
Again, I don't really need to use sleeves, personally. I just take the easier way.

I should note that I don't shuffle using the "bridge method" or the "mini random stacks" method. Both these methods are proven to randomize the deck if used enough times.
I shuffle normally enough times for it not to be an issue.


All is needed is one player cheating once for us to force sleeves upon certain conditions.
The rules are ok, although one can still abuse them.
You guys can have a romantic view of the game. I probably have one too in different aspects of it.
But people are people.
People will cheat. Even if it's 1 in 1000.
That sucks? Most definitely.
Lots of things suck. Some of them we can go around (LSJ wants out, Floppy goes in).
Others we can't.


EDIT: I don't understand how it is possible to be against Proxies by counter argumentation of the money issue for new players, and claim that the cost is an issue for sleeves and that it would be a barrier to new players.
Yeah, I'm looking at you Kevin

This can be a bit of being a jerk but I have been thinking what is "significant advantage"? Can I use all cards which for example cost blood as mixed jyhad/3ed cards? I guess not but what is "significant"?

I think there is always some small advantage when using different printings. If this advantage is offered for every player I see no reason to not to use it. I wouldn't call it cheating, the advantage just comes instantly when you have cards with different printing in your deck. Sleeves would be easy solution (at least for important tournaments).

Brum wrote:

I think we are discussing a rather pointless issue and with some unreal arguments (I'll give two examples):

- "It is easier to cheat with sleeves"
One can make a deck without sleeves where only the Deflections or the Freak Drives are Jyhad. I think this example counters the quoted statement.

It doesn't, unless you can prove that it's somehow impossible to make a sleeved deck in which the Deflections or Freak Drives are marked. And, again, the method you're describing here is much easier to catch - call a judge over and have him go through the deck. If every Jyhad card is a Freak Drive and every FD is Jyhad, that's very easy to spot. Much harder to spot deliberately marked sleeves.

So at best, your example here establishes equivalence - it's as easy to cheat with sleeves as without them. So why require them, given that not everyone agrees that they should be required?

Brum wrote:

- "It is easier to shuffle without sleeves"
This is not an absolute truth.

Couldn't care less. For me, it's true. That's good enough reason for me to not want to sleeve my deck.

henrik wrote:

Kushiel wrote:

[...] it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.

Do you have any proof of this?
I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.

Do you have any proof that people that don't use sleeves are, by definition, cheaters, or have less integrity than players that use sleeves?

That's why this discussion is moot -- because we punish people for things that they DO (cheat) not things that they MIGHT do based on the way that they are acting (not using sleeves).

---

SIDE DISCUSSION:

I show up in a VTES community with a dozen decks, ready to play, you're going to tell me that I have to buy sleeves, put them on all my decks, and play far out of my comfort zone, without having any evidence that I'm a bad guy at any level, instead of just inviting me in and happily getting another player for a few games?

^^ THIS is how the "pro-sleeve" argument logically falls.

It sounds like an awful, fearful place to be as a player and as a gaming community, and I've always wondered why certain VTES communities wish to punish players by forcing them to spend money on sleeves that aren't needed. Can anyone explain this to me?

(I've also wondered why those French players that were KNOWN cheaters were allowed by the rest of the community to continue to play, and not ostracized, but that's a completely different discussion.)

Brum wrote:

- "It is easier to cheat with sleeves"
One can make a deck without sleeves where only the Deflections or the Freak Drives are Jyhad. I think this example counters the quoted statement.
True story: I break my Predator's deck. He draws his first 7 cards. His 8th card is Jyhad. He says "You're screwed" with a smile.
I ask why. He says "I know what card that is".
This player was a known cheater. Thank the Lords of Kobol he's also very stupid.

I assume this means that you reported him for cheating.

I only rarely sleeve my decks. Maybe it's a cultural thing: I'm American, and not everyone sleeves their decks here. I usually sleeve my crypt in order to save wear and tear on those cards. If I felt that my mix of cards would give me an advantage (or would be judged to give me an advantage), I would sleeve them in a tournament. Usually I have random staple Jyhad cards that are truly randomized. Possible example of Jyhad cards in a Tremere deck: 2x Magic of the Smith/ 1x Govern the Unaligned/ 2x Wake with Evening's Freshness/ 2x Taste of Vitae/ 1x Conditioning/ 2x Deflection. That kind of thing.

I don't want to have to sleeve every deck I play with. That's too much work. I want it to be easy to alter, dismantle, and build decks.

KevinM wrote:

henrik wrote:

Kushiel wrote:

[...] it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.

Do you have any proof of this?
I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.

Do you have any proof that people that don't use sleeves are, by definition, cheaters, or have less integrity than players that use sleeves?

I don't. But since it's nothing I have said I don't see why I should have to prove it.

KevinM wrote:

That's why this discussion is moot -- because we punish people for things that they DO (cheat) not things that they MIGHT do based on the way that they are acting (not using sleeves).

I'm not talking about punishing. I'm talking about prohibiting people from playing with differently backed cards.

KevinM wrote:

---

SIDE DISCUSSION:

I show up in a VTES community with a dozen decks, ready to play, you're going to tell me that I have to buy sleeves, put them on all my decks, and play far out of my comfort zone, without having any evidence that I'm a bad guy at any level, instead of just inviting me in and happily getting another player for a few games?

^^ THIS is how the "pro-sleeve" argument logically falls.

It sounds like an awful, fearful place to be as a player and as a gaming community, and I've always wondered why certain VTES communities wish to punish players by forcing them to spend money on sleeves that aren't needed. Can anyone explain this to me?

For casual games I don't care. You can do whatever you want. I'm interested in the tournament rules and not your community's comfort zone.
And as I've stated before in this thread, opaque sleeves are needed due to the very different colouring of the sets.

KevinM wrote:

(I've also wondered why those French players that were KNOWN cheaters were allowed by the rest of the community to continue to play, and not ostracized, but that's a completely different discussion.)

Either you're going to create that thread yourself or you're being a jerk. If the former, I look forward to discussing it in your thread. If the latter, please stop.