Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

henrik wrote:

I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to "significant advantage". I believe using sleeves with different colours (in a mix as good as in those decks that use both Jyhad and VTES backs) would put me in the same situation as players who chose to not sleeve their decks. Calling me a cheater for wanting that would be to call all those who doesn't sleeve their decks cheaters. Well played.

See, you don't even read (or care about) what I write, and that's the problem. You just want to keep repeating the same thing over and over. You're in your own echo chamber. But I'm willing to try again.

I told you about a player I know -- I know lots, actually, but I specifically told you about one person in particular -- who mixes lots of card backs, doesn't sleeve his cards, and isn't a cheater because he doesn't pay attention to his card backs because he couldn't give a shit.

You keep stating that he is a cheater, except that he isn't one, by definition. And then you create an absurd situation where you are trying to equate a player like in my example to you actively and knowingly cheating by using different color sleeves.

Well played.

While your original post was useful in questioning the status quo, your two errors with your continued echo chamber attitude have led you astray.

Cheating has been demonstrated not to be a problem in VTES. This is a fact.

Welcome to a game where people are nice. They really are.

So, count the number of times you've ever so much as heard a story of someone cheating at VTES, compare that to the number of games and tournaments that you've ever played (or the number of posts in this thread) and then ask yourself if it's still worth it to make the entire VTES playerbase spend money on sleeves.

Come on, Kevin. We're not talking about who or who cheated. We're talking about whether or not one specific rule is good or bad. There's a big, big difference between stating 1) mixing Jyhad and VTES backed cards can be used to cheat and stating 2) most who mixes Jyhad and VTES backed cards are cheating.

I don't think (2) is true. I don't think anyone claims (2) to be true, so maybe we can talk about something else?

Do you think (1) is untrue? If so, why?

Xaddam wrote:

Come on, Kevin. We're not talking about who or who cheated. We're talking about whether or not one specific rule is good or bad. There's a big, big difference between stating 1) mixing Jyhad and VTES backed cards can be used to cheat and stating 2) most who mixes Jyhad and VTES backed cards are cheating.

I don't think (2) is true. I don't think anyone claims (2) to be true, so maybe we can talk about something else?

I have provided an example, to which Henrik doesn't pay attention, to which he then says "I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to 'significant advantage'."

So, yes, someone -- Henrik -- is saying that my friend, as well as lots and lots of other players that I know, are cheaters. He's said it repeatedly, in fact. You get him to stop saying it, if you can.

Xaddam wrote:

Do you think (1) is untrue? If so, why?

I have already answered this well in previous posts, but I will repost the relevant parts:

Sleeves are not mandatory because a)it would provide a barrier to entry to some players, and b)because you don't assume that players are guilty and create institutional rules stating such (see: the 'Mandatory Deck Lists' discussion)
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That's why this discussion is moot -- because we punish people for things that they DO (cheat) not things that they MIGHT do based on the way that they are acting (not using sleeves).
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What I'm saying is that there is no reason to assume that people are going to cheat and to create barriers, however slight, above and beyond the rules of the game, to play, and the lack of such barriers, however few, are not grounds to state that a community does not have 100% integrity in regards to leveling the playing field. The non-sleeve-based rules are completely sufficient to ensure a proper, legitimate, integrity-based game.
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Certainly, using the very clearly different card backs of 'Jyhad' and 'V:TES' could be an issue of information, and possibly cheating. The issue is that it COULD BE, not that it IS. That difference between 'is' and 'could be' is the heart of the matter of sleeves vs no sleeves.
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The rules are quite clear about different card backs. What this discussion is evolving into is the difference between a cheating player and a player that uses cards with different backs, and how the former is clearly breaking the rules while the latter is, with no care or knowledge about his card backs, not doing so, and how difficult it is for some people to believe that such a player can exist.
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Cheating has been demonstrated not to be a problem in VTES. This is a fact.

Welcome to a game where people are nice. They really are.

So, count the number of times you've ever so much as heard a story of someone cheating at VTES, compare that to the number of games and tournaments that you've ever played (or the number of posts in this thread) and then ask yourself if it's still worth it to make the entire VTES playerbase spend money on sleeves.
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I hope something in there answers your question.

KevinM wrote:

henrik wrote:

I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to "significant advantage". I believe using sleeves with different colours (in a mix as good as in those decks that use both Jyhad and VTES backs) would put me in the same situation as players who chose to not sleeve their decks. Calling me a cheater for wanting that would be to call all those who doesn't sleeve their decks cheaters. Well played.

See, you don't even read (or care about) what I write, and that's the problem. You just want to keep repeating the same thing over and over. You're in your own echo chamber. But I'm willing to try again.

I told you about a player I know -- I know lots, actually, but I specifically told you about one person in particular -- who mixes lots of card backs, doesn't sleeve his cards, and isn't a cheater because he doesn't pay attention to his card backs because he couldn't give a shit.

I don't care about a single person who doesn't pay attention. I care that the information is obtainable for those who chose to not sleeve their decks, yet the advantage gained seems to be big enough to prohibit me from using 2 different colours on my sleeves.

KevinM wrote:

You keep stating that he is a cheater, except that he isn't one, by definition. And then you create an absurd situation where you are trying to equate a player like in my example to you actively and knowingly cheating by using different color sleeves.

Well played.

Do quote me (several times) where I call your friend a cheater. Or stop saying that I do, my intention has not at all been to call anyone out as a cheater and I apoligise if I have. My point is that the information is there.

KevinM wrote:

While your original post was useful in questioning the status quo, your two errors with your continued echo chamber attitude have led you astray.

Cheating has been demonstrated not to be a problem in VTES. This is a fact.

Link me that proof. I have not yet seen it. I do think I have presented proof that differently backed cards gives additional information to players though. Of course, if this information is used or not depends on the player. I find it hard to believe that it hasn't happened in a single tournament though, but neither you or me can prove that.

KevinM wrote:

Welcome to a game where people are nice. They really are.

So, count the number of times you've ever so much as heard a story of someone cheating at VTES, compare that to the number of games and tournaments that you've ever played (or the number of posts in this thread) and then ask yourself if it's still worth it to make the entire VTES playerbase spend money on sleeves.

The point still isn't about whether people actually cheat or not. The point is that the tournament rules allows people to have access to additional information that should be hidden. To have access to this information they must chose not to sleeve their decks.
How is this possible good for a competitve environment?

If I'm supposed to trust that noone who uses differently backed cards uses the information given through that, how come I can't be trusted to not use that information if I sleeve my deck with sleeves in two different colours?

This entire discission might be moot anyway. It depends on wether or not you're allowed to SHOW the content of your hand or uncontrolled region (hidden resources known to you) to another player.

Let's say you're NOT allowed to show your hidden resources to another player. By playing a sleeveless deck after the first V:EKN fan-based set is tournament legal you are indeed SHOWING all players at the table that your deck does not include any cards from said set, which would be illegal.

Sure, a tad corner case, but V:TES has a lot of corner case rulings.

yappo wrote:

Let's say you're NOT allowed to show your hidden resources to another player. By playing a sleeveless deck after the first V:EKN fan-based set is tournament legal you are indeed SHOWING all players at the table that your deck does not include any cards from said set, which would be illegal.

Incorrect.
Letting other players know you're not playing cards from the VEKN fan-based sets is OK as much as letting other players know you're playing with Jyhad crypt cards (group 1-2 vampires).