Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

Izaak wrote:

I also don't think it's very relevant for the discussion whether or not people actually cheat. I was merely saying I find it strange the rules of the game leave an enormous opportunity to cheat "legally".

[hijack] If you are worried about the rules allowing legal cheating, I would also think you would be worried about the current rules on sportsmanlike conduct. It is currently legal to speak to other players about the details of particular game when one or more other players are not present as long as you do not agree to a particular VP split.

As far as I'm concerned, that is also legalized cheating, which has even bigger chances for abuse.[/hijack]

KevinM wrote:

henrik wrote:

For me it's not so much that I believe people are cheating a lot, but more that the tournament rules allows a kind of marked cards. I find this very strange, and I think it makes calling the real cheaters on cheating harder.

This is entirely possible, but since we can never collect any data on cheaters that get away with it, it seems less than useful to attempt such a thing. Instead, we as players remain vigilant to the best of our ability, so that with or without sleeves, the other players are not cheating.

Allowing differently backed cards is not really to "remain vigilant to the best of our ability".

KevinM wrote:

henrik wrote:

I would love to see a decklist (with sets included) that doesn't give any extra information to the player when (for example) their library is down to 10 cards and only 1 of them have a Jyhad back.

I described such a player previously. The deck list isn't relevant, it's the player's intent that is questioned.

My point is that any deck with different backs will start at, or move towards a point where your chance of guessing the top card in the deck is higher than a sleeved deck (with identical backs). This is additional information that players can gain which can give them a significant (in my opinion) advantage. Of course, the advantage is only there if they chose not to use sleeves on their cards, making the situatione even worse.

It's not really the players intent that is my issue here. It's the tournament rules that allows a way of playing with marked cards, which I think can give a rather big advantage in a significant number of games.

KevinM wrote:

You believe that using sleeves of different color and/or type in the same library/crypt equates to "minor advantage"???

Now you're the cheater. Is that your goal?

I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to "significant advantage".
I believe using sleeves with different colours (in a mix as good as in those decks that use both Jyhad and VTES backs) would put me in the same situation as players who chose to not sleeve their decks. Calling me a cheater for wanting that would be to call all those who doesn't sleeve their decks cheaters. Well played.

henrik wrote:

It's not really the players intent that is my issue here. It's the tournament rules that allows a way of playing with marked cards, which I think can give a rather big advantage in a significant number of games.

I'll try rephrasing this question one last time in hopes of getting an answer from you: Given that these rules have been in place for the 10+ years of VEKN's history, and there haven't been significant issues with them, why is this an issue now?

henrik wrote:

I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to "significant advantage".

Perhaps we should revisit statistics.

I don't plan to, but the advantage is only significant if you intend to cheat when you build the deck.

I am sorry that you live in a world where planning to cheat is such a problem for you.

For me, V:TES is a game with value, and will be enjoyed as such, without sleeves.

Cheating has no value.

Kushiel wrote:

henrik wrote:

It's not really the players intent that is my issue here. It's the tournament rules that allows a way of playing with marked cards, which I think can give a rather big advantage in a significant number of games.

I'll try rephrasing this question one last time in hopes of getting an answer from you: Given that these rules have been in place for the 10+ years of VEKN's history, and there haven't been significant issues with them, why is this an issue now?

I still don't see why this matters at all. I'm presenting a problem with the current tournament rules (they allow playing with marked cards).

But sure, I'll give you the full story of why I decided to create this thread at this point in time.

Last weekend me and some friends drove to a tournament (~3 hour drive) and during the trip we discussed VTES stuff. One of us seemed to recall a ruling about players not being allowed to shuffle around their crypt cards in the uncontrolled region (relevant for Brain Wash after Banishment and weird stuff like that). We wondered if that ruling would be applicable to cards in the hand as well (like the ones that Mistress Fanchon fetches). After the tournament we checked this out and it was all false, shuffling uncontrolled crypt cards are allowed.
Anyway, that discussion led us to talk a bit about the fact that you're allowed to use cards with different backs in tournaments and that it can give you advantages. After getting home we talked some more about it and I read the tournament rules more closely. I found them weird and made this thread.

Not sure if that's what you're after or if I'm misunderstanding your question again. I guess I could've asked years back if the thoughts had passed my mind, but they didn't. At least not at a time when I was sitting at my computer, just a few clicks from making a new post. For what it's worth I think this has been a flaw in the rules since the change in back prints on the cards.

Adonai wrote:

henrik wrote:

I believe that having cards with different backs in your library or crypt equates to "significant advantage".

Perhaps we should revisit statistics.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Adonai wrote:

I don't plan to, but the advantage is only significant if you intend to cheat when you build the deck.

Playing with differently backed cards can lead to a position where you will have better knowledge of your library than you would if your cards had sleeves or identical backs. Whether or not this was your intent doesn't really matter, as the information will be there either way.

Adonai wrote:

For me, V:TES is a game with value, and will be enjoyed as such, without sleeves.

Cheating has no value.

It has a value to me as well. That's why I want tournament rules that doesn't allow marked cards, no matter how or why they were marked.