Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

Izaak wrote:

I too have always thought it is totally silly that the tournament rules allow you to mark cards.

You are misdefining the term "to mark cards", as the rules do not allow this. The rules are quite clear about different card backs. What this discussion is evolving into is the difference between a cheating player and a player that uses cards with different backs, and how the former is clearly breaking the rules while the latter is, with no care or knowledge about his card backs, not doing so, and how difficult it is for some people to believe that such a player can exist.

Izaak wrote:

I understand that this is not perceived a problem over in the US where people apparently play unsleeved a lot and in Europe literally everyone plays with sleeves.

Correctly and well stated. The issue at hand here is: Either the cheaters in the USA (North America?) are FANTASTIC and have NEVER been caught in thousands of tournaments in 15+ years, or the players in the USA (NA?) who don't play with sleeves don't pay attention to their card backs because they just don't care and aren't cheaters.

Izaak wrote:

Sure, so we all assume people don't cheat, but with the rules as they are it's *extremely easy* to actually do so.

If true, why is it that 99.99999% of VTES players don't cheat? (I ask because I think this point is very important to the discussion.)

henrik wrote:

Pascal wrote:

henrik wrote:

In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?

Because minor advantage is ok.

I assume this means that using sleeves of different colour and type in the same library/crypt is allowed as well?

You believe that using sleeves of different color and/or type in the same library/crypt equates to "minor advantage"???

Now you're the cheater. Is that your goal?

Why isn't anyone buying my "I AM NOT A CHEATER" stickers? You must all be cheaters.


the only way mandatory card sleeves can possibly prevent any cheating is if your predator sleeves your deck with his own product before the game begins, without looking at the contents of course. and the sleeves must be changed between every tournament round because they could be marked by the cheater player mid-game. DO YOU WANT THIS?

it's neither easier nor harder to cheat with sleeves on. all it does is make it more subtle, and possibly harder to catch, assuming a player wants to cheat. if someone wants to cheat, they will find a way to cheat. right now the only enforcement against cheating is that if you think an opponent is topdeck-cheating, you ask a judge to examine his deck. it would be very easy to notice a pattern of Jyhad-only cards compared to tiny scratches or smudges on the sleeves.

the only benefit from sleeves, aside from preferring their feel or wanting to protect your cards, is that you can prevent unintentional self-cheating if you feel that it is an issue. if I make a deck that has 2 Jyhad cards in it, because I have no other versions of those cards, then I'll probably sleeve it all to make sure I don't accidentally see them on top of the deck. but I rarely sleeve because I'm usually too distracted to look at my library deck. Others may unconsciously know too much about their deck composition and the different colors on card backs and choose to keep themselves honest.

this is voluntary and should stay that way, because making it mandatory doesn't do SHIT.


oh yes, an addendum to the above proposal: someone will need to change the sleeves on your deck when you play 3 Ashur Tablets, because you CHEATERS might mark the cards in your ash heap before shuffling them back in.

Haze wrote:

Why isn't anyone buying my "I AM NOT A CHEATER" stickers? You must all be cheaters.

the only way mandatory card sleeves can possibly prevent any cheating is if your predator sleeves your deck with his own product before the game begins, without looking at the contents of course. and the sleeves must be changed between every tournament round because they could be marked by the cheater player mid-game. DO YOU WANT THIS?

it's neither easier nor harder to cheat with sleeves on. all it does is make it more subtle, and possibly harder to catch, assuming a player wants to cheat. if someone wants to cheat, they will find a way to cheat. right now the only enforcement against cheating is that if you think an opponent is topdeck-cheating, you ask a judge to examine his deck. it would be very easy to notice a pattern of Jyhad-only cards compared to tiny scratches or smudges on the sleeves.

the only benefit from sleeves, aside from preferring their feel or wanting to protect your cards, is that you can prevent unintentional self-cheating if you feel that it is an issue. if I make a deck that has 2 Jyhad cards in it, because I have no other versions of those cards, then I'll probably sleeve it all to make sure I don't accidentally see them on top of the deck. but I rarely sleeve because I'm usually too distracted to look at my library deck. Others may unconsciously know too much about their deck composition and the different colors on card backs and choose to keep themselves honest.

this is voluntary and should stay that way, because making it mandatory doesn't do SHIT.

oh yes, an addendum to the above proposal: someone will need to change the sleeves on your deck when you play 3 Ashur Tablets, because you CHEATERS might mark the cards in your ash heap before shuffling them back in.

This might be the Post Of The Year on VEKN.net!

If true, why is it that 99.99999% of VTES players don't cheat? (I ask because I think this point is very important to the discussion.)

Because, supposedly, since there isn't any sort of cash to be won in VTES and non-money price support hasn't exactly been stellar either in the past 10 years, there is no real reason to cheat other than claiming TWDA spots and appearing in a cool, but totally meaningless Hall of Fame. I'm fairly convinced that if the EC or NAC paid a $/€ 25k price, we'd be having mandatory sleeves.

I also don't think it's very relevant for the discussion whether or not people actually cheat. I was merely saying I find it strange the rules of the game leave an enormous opportunity to cheat "legally".

<snipped a lot of stuff by Haze>

This entire argument can be repeated for Magic, where substantial amounts of cash can be won and mandatory sleeving presumably has kept away cheaters for years.

Izaak wrote:

This entire argument can be repeated for Magic, where substantial amounts of cash can be won and mandatory sleeving presumably has kept away cheaters for years.

Unfortunately incorrect. There are LOTS of cheaters at most Magic events, and always have been. It's largely because the sport refuses to police itself and relies on a weak justice system. I myself have gotten several 1-year and at least two 5-year bans, back when I played.