file A proposition to change Lilith's Blessing and Anthelios

05 Jan 2013 12:58 #43639 by brm130

As the card stands Liliths’s Blessing has (a) introduced a powerful effect into the game, that (b) interacts very powerfully with certain other cards (e.g. villein) and (c) has also created a trait that is currently meaningless. The simplest resolution to me seems to be to make the trait meaningful, in the game and specifically the rulebook, in a manner that gives the powerful card effect an immediate downside and also interacts with certain other currently existing cards and strategies. Hence my suggestion of all Bahari are automatically on the Red List. This would be thematically justifiable and also empowers currently existing cards and strategies that are underpowered (i.e. Trophies); one might even start thinking about playing cards like Priority Shift in decks or else including Trophies in none Trophy focused decks, simply based on the likelihood of seeing the accursed Lilith-loving Bahari on the table.


This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor.

Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view.

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05 Jan 2013 13:52 #43642 by Ohlmann

[In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy.


It's a religion/philosophy with tie to infernalism. So it's not exactly stupid to say that Bahari should all be in the red list ; it's just that Baali should be red list before them, since bahari are both less well-known and more benign-looking than true Baali. (and certainly less dangerous, but it's subjective)

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05 Jan 2013 13:53 #43643 by Temporis

This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor.

Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view.


I think thematically Bahari as Red List could be disputed; I simply don’t have enough of the source material to make a strong case. But it certainly wouldn’t be contrary to the theme. While Bahari is a religion/philosophy, it is certainly one that could warrant one being put on to the a Most Wanted list, just as could belonging to a number of terrorist groups or ideologies.

However, conceptually the case to be made is stronger (i.e. not ‘silly’).
Lilith’s Blessing has a strong positive effect, attached to a condition that can be easily met, and with no corresponding downside.
Making Bahari independent doesn’t inconvenience a great many vampires (20-25% won’t mind) and therefore isn’t a sufficient balancing mechanism.
Making Bahari unable to vote again wouldn’t impact all vampires, most Baali and Setites wouldn’t give a damn about either restriction.
Making Bahari Red List similarly won’t trouble all vampires equally (notably some combat monsters will be indifferent and those who are already Red List won’t be bothered); however, it is a negative effect that will impact most to some degree (i.e. they become rushable) and empowers a mechanism that most people consider weak (i.e. trophies).

Most basically I think it becomes an interesting choice: gain three blood and a master card, but also become rushable for the rest of the game. Now I agree that some/many may not think that this is balanced, but it still seems borderline playable and a choice that people may be willing to take. ‘I’m on zero blood, I can either hunt like any other kindred or else sign on with Lilith and become universally despised and hunted’.

My point is that would the card have been better and playable if the card had said ‘becomes Red List’ rather than ‘becomes Bahari’? My point is that yes it would.

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05 Jan 2013 14:23 #43644 by Jeff Kuta

This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor.

Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view.


Personally, I don't see why defining Bahari as *also* something else is necessary. It is a trait. It can be addressed as such on its own merits. My reading of the lore says that there is no inconsistency between Lilins and political vampires. Forcing them to be Independent is one way of restricting the power of the Lilith's Blessing card. However, it doesn't seem necessary to introduce this type of fix to the card which will have long-term implications for the game. Shoot, if you go down this route, I suppose Miller Delmardigan should be retroactively assigned the Bahari trait as well.

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05 Jan 2013 15:27 #43647 by Ohlmann

My reading of the lore says that there is no inconsistency between Lilins and political vampires.


Except the fact they are cast out from the sabbat (from the lore), and aren't on the humanity path, which make them at odds with the camarilla. And a lot of independants clans aren't keen on them either ; they are philosophically at odds with Setite* and assamites, and Giovanni will fear they stop obeying the clan.

Of course, they may keep their affiliation hidden, but lillith blessing don't seem to be all that easy to conceal.

* for setites, the problem is that Lilins tend to be corrupted themselves, whereas they are supposed to be corrupter but stay straigth.

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07 Jan 2013 08:22 - 07 Jan 2013 08:24 #43708 by Azel
Adding cards to expand a weak concept is fine. There's room for power expansion. And card draw probability, along with necessary card combination, generally mitigates the speed of implementation.

Adding cards to contract an overpowered (possibly even broken) concept is a waste of time. There's little room for power expansion because the overpowered: a) already de facto bans other card concepts, b) leaves little design leeway for mistakes, i.e. create more problems than it solves.

And further again, card draw probability generally mitigates the speed of 'magic bullet' implementation (which leads to 'fetch tech' speed races -- which already does bad things to a game).

Make the bullet too silver and it's cornercase. Make the bullet too gold and it creates its own problems (DI). Leave the situation in desperate need of silver bullets and watch 'rapid reload' tech change the game's nature.

Therefore the cleanest solution is to wipe out the 'werewolf' from the field. Ban it already.
Last edit: 07 Jan 2013 08:24 by Azel.

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