A proposition to change Lilith's Blessing and Anthelios

Pascal wrote:

Jeff wrote:

There are three ways to address problem cards that already exist:

1) Ban them
2) Change them
3) Create new cards that interact with them.

By most accounts on this thread, Lilith's Blessing is a problem. Choice #3 is a great design methodology. In fact, it is the most commonly used one.

4/ Update the Rules (in the case of lilith's blessing, make Bahari Independent, for instance)

Personally I would favour 4/ but making anyone with the Bahari trait Red List.

The immediate consequence would be making them vulnerable to red list rush and also empowering trophy strategies (at least for a while, people would start thinking twice about Villeining their 10cap and going Bahari if they were suddenly vulnerable to rush for cavorting with Lilith).

[EDIT: A more careful reading of this thread reveals that Reyda has already suggested that Bahari are Red List (albeit also Independent and unable to vote). However, I would contend that Red List alone is more than sufficient and balances out fairly well with the benefit of gaining three blood and a master card; moreover, becoming Independent won't bother a great many vampires and might even be exploited as a benefit in certain cases, while Red List is detrimental to a far more larger set of vampires than becoming independent alone.]

Ban 'em. It's the cleanest solution.

Another solution could be to leave as is but introduce other cards that have some nasty consequences:

Just a matter of time
Type: Event, transient
Put this card in play with 5 (10?) counters. Each methuselah must remove a counter from this card during their discard phase. While this card has no counters all bahari minions are also infernal.

That'll teach people to play liliths blessing! Without being an immediate counter. Once infernal it's easier to make them red list if required (see 'Public enemy' action)

Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future.

Printing cards to interact with Lilith’s directly is problematic at (a) the level of testing and getting cards printed at this moment in time and (b) for all of the well-rehearsed reasons against having to include more card hosers in a deck to counteract particular card effects.

As the card stands Liliths’s Blessing has (a) introduced a powerful effect into the game, that (b) interacts very powerfully with certain other cards (e.g. villein) and (c) has also created a trait that is currently meaningless. The simplest resolution to me seems to be to make the trait meaningful, in the game and specifically the rulebook, in a manner that gives the powerful card effect an immediate downside and also interacts with certain other currently existing cards and strategies. Hence my suggestion of all Bahari are automatically on the Red List. This would be thematically justifiable and also empowers currently existing cards and strategies that are underpowered (i.e. Trophies); one might even start thinking about playing cards like Priority Shift in decks or else including Trophies in none Trophy focused decks, simply based on the likelihood of seeing the accursed Lilith-loving Bahari on the table.

Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future.

This not true. At no point was the intent to have Bahari actually mean something in the gane. Lilith's Blessing was spawned by a trainwreck of a storyline event and for some reason made standard constructed legal as well.

(supposedly because all earlier storyline cards were either unplayable trash or narrow enough to never have an impact and thus were added to the legal cards pool without further consequences).

Izaak wrote:

Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future.

This not true. At no point was the intent to have Bahari actually mean something in the gane. Lilith's Blessing was spawned by a trainwreck of a storyline event and for some reason made standard constructed legal as well.

Ah well, that was admittedly speculative and charitable of me. I simply could not imagine a trait being introduced into the game and then having no functionality whatsoever.