file Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

01 Mar 2018 20:14 - 01 Mar 2018 20:53 #85497 by TwoRazorReign

tbh as a new player (1.5 years), imbued give me a hard time.

but no more hard time than half of the other cards that our group discovers and plays for the first time.

or trap, which i still have to read 6-7 times when its played.
or nephandus, which i remember about 1/18 of its abilities.


Right. Someone made an argument earlier in this thread that Imbued are not "good design" because their rule set is too much trouble for players to figure out. This argument makes no sense to me because there are any number of things in VTES that take some attention to understand. I get that lots of players don't like imbued because of the separate rules set that affect 2% of the card pool, making the imbued deck hard to deal with in a game. But this is a subjective opinion and is not a hard example of bad game design. Some people play Imbued and enjoy playing Imbued. Any arguments about "bad game design" end right there for me.

The game doesn't need to be redesigned to cut the Imbued out, players need to step up their game and be prepared for those times imbued show up.
Last edit: 01 Mar 2018 20:53 by TwoRazorReign.

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01 Mar 2018 21:26 #85498 by Kushiel
Replied by Kushiel on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?



As you've correctly deduced, the only negative side effect of my marvelous new device is that I've been turned into a dog.

Still, totally worth it.

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01 Mar 2018 22:24 #85499 by LivesByProxy

Someone made an argument earlier in this thread that Imbued are not "good design" because their rule set is too much trouble for players to figure out. This argument makes no sense to me because there are any number of things in VTES that take some attention to understand. I get that lots of players don't like imbued because of the separate rules set that affect 2% of the card pool, making the imbued deck hard to deal with in a game. But this is a subjective opinion and is not a hard example of bad game design. Some people play Imbued and enjoy playing Imbued. Any arguments about "bad game design" end right there for me.

The game doesn't need to be redesigned to cut the Imbued out, players need to step up their game and be prepared for those times imbued show up.


While "good game design" is subjective in the sense that what qualifies as 'good game design' varies from player to player, as a general rule, good game design is elegant, conveying as much information as possible with as little hassle and effort as possible. When the game uses player's real world knowledge to help bridge the gap between rules and expectations, then it's generally considered good design. 'Auspex' is a weird word, but seeing the 'eye' icon and learning that it is on cards that generally do things related to sight and intercept, eases the burden of knowledge on players. Same goes for most of the other discipline icons, IMO. But with the Imbued, for example, none of the icons readily mean anything to me, besides the scales of justice.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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01 Mar 2018 23:47 #85500 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?
Yeah, it is pretty hard to remember a couple of card's worth of rules. Or 20 Crypt and 40 Library cards. Really really hard.

Biggest problem with Imbued is the extremely limited cardpool available for them so there is very little variance. A pure new Imbued set would be a PR catastrophe, but I think adding one new card to every new set would slowly give more variance without hogging too much space.

Designvise, I think LSJ did magnificent job incorporating a new faction that works in a unique way but still interacts very well with the remainder of VTES!

NC, Finland
Finnish :POT: Politics!
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02 Mar 2018 00:29 #85502 by TwoRazorReign

While "good game design" is subjective in the sense that what qualifies as 'good game design' varies from player to player, as a general rule, good game design is elegant, conveying as much information as possible with as little hassle and effort as possible.


What you're describing can't be a "general rule" of good game design because VTES would be considered very poorly designed. VTES is very inelegant when conveying how cards interact with the rules as written in the rulebook. Lots of people play and love VTES anyway. Conversely, a game can be easy to understand but not fun to play. The not fun to play part would be an indictment on poor game design; whether the rules and their interaction with card text are elegantly conveyed isn't really a reflection of how well a game is designed.

When the game uses player's real world knowledge to help bridge the gap between rules and expectations, then it's generally considered good design.


This also has nothing to do with game design. Almost every new player I come in contact with taps a minion after they enter combat via another player's rush. This never results in these players leaving on the spot because it's not fun (AKA, poor design) to not tap minions when entering combat via another player's rush. Now, it would be "elegant" if minions always tapped when entering combat to align with inexperienced player's expectations of tapping minions whenever combat occurs. But that this is not the case is not bad game design. This is just poor explanation of rules in the rulebook (combat via rush needs to be more clearly described in the rulebook, and if it were, perhaps people would not automatically think to tap minions upon entering combat from another player's rush).

'Auspex' is a weird word, but seeing the 'eye' icon and learning that it is on cards that generally do things related to sight and intercept, eases the burden of knowledge on players. Same goes for most of the other discipline icons, IMO. But with the Imbued, for example, none of the icons readily mean anything to me, besides the scales of justice.


But this is not something peculiar to Imbued. Does an asterisk clearly represent a minion's supernatural charisma? And does a white circle with a piece missing clearly represent shapesifting ability? I don't think so. But these symbols work because all symbols are clearly defined in the rulebook. It's unfair to pick on the imbued for having symbols you don't wish to look up in the rulebook.

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02 Mar 2018 00:44 #85503 by narpassword
To expand RE disciplines, the only ones that are fairly straight forward (in terms of what they might contribute towards, not how the power is lore wise)

Big punch icon - looks like it might hurt people
Eye - you can see things
Sword: might hurt things more

Theme ones i can guess easily with no prior knowledge, but dont indicate game area used:

Paw print: might do stuff with animals
Devil fork: fire or demon summoning
Skull: necromancy (pretty common theme for any rpg)
Snakes: snakes
Brain: confusing cards

Things that are basically meaningless:

Dominate (didnt know this was a chain for a long time)
Obf (had people ask if the card's icon was a misprint)
Fortitude: "are these mountain things - what do they do"
Protean: is this a cats eye?
Celerity: electricity?

Qui/VIC/VIS/Thn/tha/spi/chi/...... lot of these tell me nothing

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