file New Blog - Gaming with BS

26 Feb 2016 15:12 #75545 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic New Blog - Gamging with BS
Last one is good, but I think - wrong.

No offense :)

I'll explain:

Obviously reboot of the game with simplified rules, reduced card pool and two player focus will be much more accesible. But I don't really think that this accesibility will transform into grouth of playerbase.

Why?

Becouse market by now are overcrouded with accesible two-player CCG and any effort to compete with them is totally pointless even if the game really will be much better. And VtES, really, got nothing interesting to provide in two player format.

Deep cardpool, multiplayer dynamics and long history with all sort of oddities are the main props of our game. If we lose them then there'll be nothing left to invite new players too.

More clear rules and, maybe, some 3-players variant will be usefull, obviously cards must be made available again.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, brettscho

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26 Feb 2016 18:39 #75548 by brettscho
I'm not sure your assessment mirrors the successes of Fantasy Flights LCGs. I'm not saying that any card game will be that successful, but they keep bringing out new games, and they all sell well. They might not stick around forever (see warhammer invasion), but they do extremely well despite the saturation of the market. FFG even just bought L5R, so they expect to be making even more LCGs. Rumor had it that they were interested in a multiplayer WoD LCG with some very familiar mechanics, which I think could have been very interesting.

Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

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29 Feb 2016 05:01 #75581 by brettscho
Replied by brettscho on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS
In light of the poll about the future of VTES, I've been doing a lot of thinking about how the rules and structure of the game could be changed to make it better. But today's article is about how the addition of 1 card could change the entire game. No rule changes, no bans, just the printing of a single card. Very interested to hear what people think about this one. Hope you enjoy!

Musing on the Dominance of Dominate

Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
The following user(s) said Thank You: 2wayspeaker

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29 Feb 2016 15:39 #75583 by alek
Replied by alek on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS
First of all, thx for regular articles on your blog. I found most of them interesting.
As for the new article, while I agree that dominate is a single most powerfull discipline in the game and that the card proposed by you would change VTES I don't like proposed card(s). Here is why:
1. Disciplines should have their flavor and more or less unique effects. Bounce effect is quiette unique and should have unique requirements. When pursuing balance between clans/ disciplines, etc. we should remember about keeping clear differences between them. If we won't every discipline would be the same, every clan would have access to same effects and tools. While it would lead to perfect balance and the same time it would lead to perfect boredom.
Another question is: is it bad that some disciplines are better than others? In WoD rpg setting it was the case.
2. Bounce effect on non-discipline card would cause bleed strategy to be much worse. Is this the effect you want to achieve?
3. Bounce effect on non-discipline card would cause cards like Perfect Clarity or Touch of Clarity to be much worse. Is this the effect you want to achieve?
For those reasons I would love to see new good and interesting effects requiring disciplines (clans/ sects) other than dominate (it doesn't need any new tools :) ). This aproach speaks to me much stronger than giving same effects for everyone.

Few more thoughts about your text.
1. You don't always need proper defense to be succesfull in VTES. There is a number of veeery succesfull strategies in VTES that don't care about defense at all but rather go in opposite direction - full offense. This include most weenie decks, most s&b decks and a big part of political decks.
2. Defense options are not only intercept or bounce. Rush, political and master decks have a lot of different defence options.
3. Lost in translation is not that bad. It actually found its way to a number of TWDA decks.

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29 Feb 2016 16:56 - 29 Feb 2016 17:00 #75584 by brettscho
Replied by brettscho on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS

First of all, thx for regular articles on your blog. I found most of them interesting.

Thank you for saying so! That's exactly the point of the articles - to get people to read and think about VTES. Even if what I'm saying it totally wrong, and even if we never see another disciplineless bounce card, the fact that people are talking about it is a win for me.

1. Disciplines should have their flavor...

Oh I completely agree! The color pie / discipline pie is absolutely essential to making the game interesting. I actually wish a little more thought that gone into this at the beginning. Most of VTES design seems to be based directly off the RPG powers, rather than a design document which talks about the types of effects a certain discipline should have. All that having been said, there are certain effects that we think all vampires should be able to do: bleed at +1 bleed, wake, dodge, maneuver, press, +2 intercept v bleeds, etc. So why not bleed bounce? Elder vampires have mysterious powers, why not influencing the minds of other vampires?

2. Bounce effect on non-discipline card would cause bleed strategy to be much worse. Is this the effect you want to achieve?

While I see where you are coming from here, I'm not really sure I agree with you. From my own experience, I estimate that 3-4 players at a standard 5 player game (and at least this at tournaments!) have decks which include auspex or dominate. This already means that the majority of decks on the table have bounce, yet bleeding remains the dominant ousting mechanism. I'm not at all sure that giving the other 1-2 players access to bounce will destroy the ability of a stealth bleed deck to win. And let's face it, those archetypes are incredibly powerful... maybe knocking them down a peg is a good thing.

3. Bounce effect on non-discipline card would cause cards like Perfect Clarity or Touch of Clarity to be much worse. Is this the effect you want to achieve?

Any efforts to reduce the power of dominate will have this effect. Personally, the usefulness of two Dominate hosers (who have failed in their mission to keep Dominate in line) would not enter into my mind if I was thinking about whether to ban Deflection, so I don't see why it should be important here. Niche cards like this are never really played in VTES. The only reason these cards see any play is because they attempt to counter the most over powered and most dominant discipline in the game. I don't see anybody crying about Shape Mastery (which cancels obtenebration, protean, and vicissitude cards).

1. You don't always need proper defense to be succesfull in VTES.

You are correct that full offense is effective, but this is accomplished either through the use of Dominate (or another powerful bleeding discipline like Dementation), or with a weenie hoard. In either case, giving decks some measure of defense against decks like these is a big plus for me. Also, I think weenies have had their day in the sun. They've been a dominant archetype since 1994. Maybe it's time to give mid cap vampire the tools they need to not be completely overwhelmed by the weenie onslaught while also not playing Dominate.

2. Defense options are not only intercept or bounce. Rush, political and master decks have a lot of different defence options.

Well, rush is it's own story. I'm currently writing an article about combat, but in short, the basic problem with it in VTES is that it either does nothing (you rush only to run into S:CE, and now you've wasted your action), or it moves to prevent somebody else from winning. Neither extreme is desirable, and the game is at it's most fun when combat manages to do something, but not reduce a player to impotence. Watching somebody sit there with all their minions in torpor just discarding a card each turn and waiting to be bleed out turn after turn is one of the most depressing things I've ever encountered in my gaming career.

But you are correct, there are other forms of defense. I outline what I consider to be the other two viable candidates in my article - block and bleed reduction/bloating. I don't see how Master cards provide a reliable defense. Even the mighty Pentex will do nothing more than waste an action if you aren't backing it up. Politics does admittedly have access to a few interesting cards like Banishment, but I have yet to see any deck rely on that for defense. Most political decks that I see include OTQV and Deflection or Telepathic Misdirection.

3. Lost in translation is not that bad. It actually found its way to a number of TWDA decks.

Those decks include 1 or 2 copies as a surprise. Much the same reason that a deck might include 1 or 2 copies of Archon Investigation. It's not the basis of your defense, it's the occasional surprise punch you can throw that nobody is expecting. Personally, I keep including LiT in my decks, but I have a predilection for bad cards, and I don't see anybody else interested in spending two blood to bounce a bleed with a ton of restrictions. At 1 blood it might be playable, although it would only help fatty decks, not mid-caps.

Hope I addressed all your points! Thanks for the comment and the continuation of the discussion.

Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
Last edit: 29 Feb 2016 17:00 by brettscho.

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01 Mar 2016 16:49 - 01 Mar 2016 16:53 #75615 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic New Blog - Gaming with BS
Reply on two posts.

First: about succes of FFG's LGC - on what information this is based? Obviously FFG got great distribution channels and high quality standards, so they can move large number of products using their formula "geek friendly setting + fine rules", but I seriously doubt the real economy under all this. Production and distribution costs money, support cost money, and it's LCG, so there are no rare chase bulk buys.

It was said by somebody from WW several (10?) years ago that on starters company looses money and boosters are needed for profitability.

And their actions confirm this - discontinuing CoC, introduction of rotation to other LCG ets.

And any publisher of new VtES not only will got all the same problems, but also will need to solve them without FFG's resourses.

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 01 Mar 2016 16:53 by elotar.

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