file What is missing from VtES?

12 Jun 2017 14:35 - 12 Jun 2017 14:36 #82170 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic What is missing from VtES?

More group 1 vamps yeah !
And it’s frustrating to always see new groups. Because and you can have those new vamps interact with the vamps you already have.

New groups are a necessity if we are to have new vamps.
But I'm all for getting Advanced copies of crappy Group 1 vampires (and other groups too) to make them more playable.

Group 1 vampires have only one group to pair with, and they are weaker than vampires from other groups (globally speaking). More advanced versions could help, maybe. Or we continue to expand the groups.

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Last edit: 12 Jun 2017 14:36 by Ankha.

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12 Jun 2017 15:00 #82171 by Brum
Replied by Brum on topic What is missing from VtES?

More group 1 vamps yeah !
And it’s frustrating to always see new groups. Because and you can have those new vamps interact with the vamps you already have.

New groups are a necessity if we are to have new vamps.
But I'm all for getting Advanced copies of crappy Group 1 vampires (and other groups too) to make them more playable.

Group 1 vampires have only one group to pair with, and they are weaker than vampires from other groups (globally speaking). More advanced versions could help, maybe. Or we continue to expand the groups.


Or both.
Say, every 10 new vampires, one group 1 ADV.
Or legalize round robin - group 6/1

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12 Jun 2017 15:30 #82172 by mathusalem

The problem here is not "as the game is played now", it's how your metagame is now. If you feel nobody else plays political decks enough, start playing lots of Parity Shift, Banishment, and KRC. Include some Deflections/Telepathic Misdirections to thwart bleed decks and fortitude damage prevention/Strike: Combat Ends to shut down combat. You should start seeing more votes at the table in response.


That is not what I meant at all. I was not speaking of my metagame (I would have used the term metagame) . I was speaking about the rules and how I interpreted them at first read vs. how they actualyy are. please re-read my post carefully.
the number of vote decks has nothing to do with what I was speaking about.

:tore:

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12 Jun 2017 16:03 #82173 by mathusalem

and a few more graveyard… sorry, ash heap, shenanigans could be thought about.


Please no.
Meddling with ash heap used to be something that more or less just Giovanni could do. With Ashurs it is anyone's game. And they totally changed how the game can be played (I do see some good in that too though).

Imagine you play a vote deck in a 5 player game. Well as the game is played now, it’s easy because, you certainly have all the necessary votes in you hand. But if each other player had a vote, well, things would REALLY be political, because you may, from the start have to bargain your way to pass your vote, and that’s what I call politics.


Uh, when there are titled vampires all over the table that is REALLY political as no matter what you have in your hand it is likely not to be enough by itself. At least that is how it feels when I play votecentric decks.... :D

Seriously, in real ‘life’ can you imagine a Cam vamp fighting alongside a Sabbat vampire ? no way.


Seriously in real life dead people stay dead... :P
Besides players are metuselah's who are orchestrating the moves of Cainites from all sects, all over the world. They do not fight together as one group.

More group 1 vamps yeah !
And it’s frustrating to always see new groups. Because and you can have those new vamps interact with the vamps you already have.

New groups are a necessity if we are to have new vamps.
But I'm all for getting Advanced copies of crappy Group 1 vampires (and other groups too) to make them more playable.


well, from my point of view, you seem very reluctant to novelty. Which is fit for an antedeluvian. I won't debate on most of your rebutals because you certainly know the game more than I do. However, from the thread's title I got the impression some were trying to consider fresh design ideas. therefore if you say no to every thing new that you see, you won't get a lot of fresh ideas.

I would like to make a specific retort regarding Ashur's tablets however. You say, nay to graveyard tricks because we already have plenty of that : Ashur's tablets.
Well that's only One card. and it's only been in KoT
(or in the anthology set, which is totally impossible to get, oh pardon me, some guy on this forum today wanted to sell one to me for 120 $. LOL who did he think he was speaking to ? I've been playing Mtg for more than 20 years, I know a shark when I see one -hope you're reading this, pal),
so to come back to our subject, one card and when I read that card, I see A nice trick, but.... I mean, it's a bit of a bother to play. so you can hardly say the game is overwhelmed by graveyard tricks. I'm sure you can print something that has a lesser, Yet simpler effect. which in term would be better. and come back to my first issue : make cards simpler.

:tore:

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12 Jun 2017 16:14 - 12 Jun 2017 16:34 #82174 by TwoRazorReign
"Imagine you play a vote deck in a 5 player game. Well as the game is played now, it’s easy because, you certainly have all the necessary votes in you hand."

I guess I misinterpreted what are you trying to say here. I took this to mean you can simply pass votes by playing enough cards to get votes through. This is really not the case in VTES at all, unless there were no other vote decks at the table. Hence the assumption that you are speaking in terms of a metagame where there are few vote decks, not the game itself.

Really, if you're going to post here, make sure you are super clear about what you mean. And if someone misinterprets your post, try to clarify instead of assuming the person didn't read your post carefully. The fact is, it's not a well-written post and it was misinterpreted.
Last edit: 12 Jun 2017 16:34 by TwoRazorReign.

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12 Jun 2017 19:13 - 12 Jun 2017 19:56 #82175 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic What is missing from VtES?
What I'm smelling, is some smoke in the air - this rhetoric is getting more and more flammable! Please keep it civil mates. :) Not that my word makes a difference or has any authority, but it probably doesn't have to. I just like reading posts with more smilies than edge!

About the graveyard thing, it's a widely agreed upon that Ashur Tablets doesn't exactly make for the most Vampirish experience, or more enjoyable at that. That said, I'm not sure it was the correct choice for the Anthology Set, as it really seems to divide opinions on if it should be errated, banned or left as is.

I would be really careful about adding magicesque cards or effects to the game. The graveyard synergy is really volatile, and could explode easily (as it already did with Ashurs). Most of what makes Vampire Vampire is your ability to keep up with fatique and hand cycle, and nothing tweaks that mechanism around more than graveyard effects.

I do share your opinion in that some more viable ash heap shenanigans could be introduced to the game. You can see my more recent card suggestions for more on that, named Ghosts in a Shell (work name).

About tricking things into play - Summon History is there for that, and it's borderline super abusable. :)

The fact that we're lacking in tutor effects mostly is one of the main drives for me in this game. You really can't base your strategy on a single card and its tutors in Vampire, or if you do, you'll have to really commit to it. And we have plenty of tutors as it is, even though most of them are for equipments: Vast Wealth, Magic of the Smith, Arms Dealer... We even have some for Allies and Retainers, and some for Vampires (Recruitment, Evil Jensen, clan spesifics...).

So, to be honest, I'd be loath to say that Vampire is lacking in tutoring effects.

Both tutors and graveyard effects are something that mess up the skill requirement of hand cycle and deck management in-game, and turns the focus more on deck building. That is, quite frankly, not something that I would enjoy in Vampire emphasized even further.

Ashur Tablets already does this.

And rest assured, it IS an oppressive card, or at least seen as such by many.

Good discussion! Keep it up! Tone down the flames, is all. :) Please?

Krausedit\\ Oh, and I wouldn't mind having another G1 vampire to, let's say, one for each of the main clans! And what about Sabbat and Independent in there... I really wouldn't mind. :)

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Last edit: 12 Jun 2017 19:56 by Kraus.

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